View topic - Ben v Eli

[Scalaid6 Profile]

So let me get this right. Just because I made an assertion, and NOBODY asked for proof. Now when I ask for proof, then you go back and now its up to me to provide proof to my original statement? I asked for proof 1st but its up to me to provide proof? WOW. THE DESPERATION LEVEL IS HIGH.

[Steel Keeper Profile]

So let me get this right. Just because I made an assertion, and NOBODY asked for proof. Now when I ask for proof, then you go back and now its up to me to provide proof to my original statement? I asked for proof 1st but its up to me to provide proof? WOW. THE DESPERATION LEVEL IS HIGH.

Desperation? Stop claiming that other people are freaking out to make it seem as though you are in control. Initially, I didn't ask for proof because there was too many other awful claims and arguments you named. Sorry I overlooked something in your long post.

I cannot prove it just yet. I'll watch the game Sunday and note whenever there is an apparent miscommunication which would indicate an option route.

Lastly, it is on you to prove the affirmative of your INITIAL statement. You brought up option routes so you have to prove it. Just because you asked me to prove it first DOES NOT mean I have the burden of proof.

[Scalaid6 Profile]

So let me get this right. Just because I made an assertion, and NOBODY asked for proof. Now when I ask for proof, then you go back and now its up to me to provide proof to my original statement? I asked for proof 1st but its up to me to provide proof? WOW. THE DESPERATION LEVEL IS HIGH.

Desperation? Stop claiming that other people are freaking out to make it seem as though you are in control. Initially, I didn't ask for proof because there was too many other awful claims and arguments you named. Sorry I overlooked something in your long post.

I cannot prove it just yet. I'll watch the game Sunday and note whenever there is an apparent miscommunication which would indicate an option route.

Lastly, it is on you to prove the affirmative of your INITIAL statement. You brought up option routes so you have to prove it. Just because you asked me to prove it first DOES NOT mean I have the burden of proof.

Let me educate you sir. Just because there is a miscommunication on a route DOESNT mean its a option route. It could be a HOT ROUTE. You or I will never know since we are not in the huddle, nor do we know the offensive philosophy and schemes. I have digressed and said "I COULD BE WRONG ON THE HOT ROUTES" But you are so DESPERATE you wont take that so you insist on proving how little football knowledge you have. WOW

[Jeemie Profile]

Let me educate you sir. Just because there is a miscommunication on a route DOESNT mean its a option route. It could be a HOT ROUTE. You or I will never know since we are not in the huddle, nor do we know the offensive philosophy and schemes. I have digressed and said "I COULD BE WRONG ON THE HOT ROUTES" But you are so DESPERATE you wont take that so you insist on proving how little football knowledge you have. WOW

Hot routes are not going to be more than 10 yards down the field.

Hot routes are quick routes designed for the QB to throw to immediately when the blitz is coming.

The route on which Ben and Hines miscommunicated was about 15-20 yards downfield.

But the argument is pointless. The Steelers use option routes...they have said they use option routes...Hines Ward is known throughout the league as someone who excels at running option routes...every team in the NFL uses option routes. Today's defenses are too good for a team NOT to use option routes.

As a matter of fact, for teams that like to run (like the Steelers), a passing game without option routes is doomed to failure.

And if you are going to claim "we are not in the huddle" as a way to excuse our evidence, then the same can be said of you and your purported "evidence".

Now- prove the Steelers do not use option routes.

[Scalaid6 Profile]

SHOW ME

[Scalaid6 Profile]

How far down the field was that hot route Neil O'donnell threw to Larry Brown?? ALl hot routes are NOT short routes. A hot route is a changed route, could be long or short. Your telling me no hot routes are streaks? Audibles certainly are. How do we know it wasnt an audible?? So as I said before, I COULD BE WRONG ON THE OPTION ROUTES but neither of us are in the huddle, we dont know the offensive scheme all we have is CONJECTURE. THE DESPERATION LEVEL IS AT AN ALL TIME HIGH. BY THE WAY.........I'M GOOD

[Scalaid6 Profile]

Let me help you guys. From day 1 I have prided myself on being honest. I wont change now. It seems I was WRONG about the option routes. It seems the Steelers do run them. Again, I was wrong. Sorry Ben. Substantiation comes from Limas Sweed.

In the NFL, a receiver might be required to adjust multiple ways on a single play call depending on the coverage, and be in sync with the quarterback while doing so.

"Here, you can run five different routes off a streak. You've got five different options based off five different kinds of coverages," Sweed said. "That's the biggest thing, learning the coverages. In college, they don't disguise coverages."


http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d ... nfirm=true

[Jeemie Profile]

How far down the field was that hot route Neil O'donnell threw to Larry Brown?? ALl hot routes are NOT short routes. A hot route is a changed route, could be long or short. Your telling me no hot routes are streaks? Audibles certainly are. How do we know it wasnt an audible?? So as I said before, I COULD BE WRONG ON THE OPTION ROUTES but neither of us are in the huddle, we dont know the offensive scheme all we have is CONJECTURE. THE DESPERATION LEVEL IS AT AN ALL TIME HIGH. BY THE WAY.........I'M GOOD

You made the absolute statement that we don't run option routes...not me.

You cannot make an absolute statement and then waive off our claims by saying "You're not in the huddle".

And...BTW, the reason the receiver was streaking down the field on NoD's INT to Brown is because he DIDN'T BREAK OFF HIS ROUTE!!!!!

He SCREWED UP!!!!!

Hot routes are routes to beat the blitz. Of what use are they if they take longer to run than it takes for the blitz to hit home?

Now- you made the absolute claim. back it up.

My claim is based on what the Steelers have said and what I have heard the scouts say.

On what is your claim based that the Steelers ran option routes until Ben became QB?

[Jeemie Profile]

Let me help you guys. From day 1 I have prided myself on being honest. I wont change now. It seems I was WRONG about the option routes. It seems the Steelers do run them. Again, I was wrong. Sorry Ben. Substantiation comes from Limas Sweed.

In the NFL, a receiver might be required to adjust multiple ways on a single play call depending on the coverage, and be in sync with the quarterback while doing so.

"Here, you can run five different routes off a streak. You've got five different options based off five different kinds of coverages," Sweed said. "That's the biggest thing, learning the coverages. In college, they don't disguise coverages."


http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d ... nfirm=true

Maybe you'll stop making such absolute statements in the future, then.

Somehow, I doubt it.

At least you nutted up.

[Scalaid6 Profile]

Let me help you guys. From day 1 I have prided myself on being honest. I wont change now. It seems I was WRONG about the option routes. It seems the Steelers do run them. Again, I was wrong. Sorry Ben. Substantiation comes from Limas Sweed.

In the NFL, a receiver might be required to adjust multiple ways on a single play call depending on the coverage, and be in sync with the quarterback while doing so.

"Here, you can run five different routes off a streak. You've got five different options based off five different kinds of coverages," Sweed said. "That's the biggest thing, learning the coverages. In college, they don't disguise coverages."


http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d ... nfirm=true

Maybe you'll stop making such absolute statements in the future, then.

Somehow, I doubt it.

At least you nutted up.

I always do. I have no reason to lie. I'll say it again. "I'm wrong over 100 times a day. Perfection is for God. When I'm wrong that is substantiation that I am not God"
I have NO problem saying I am wrong. Just like you guys piggy back on my statments (absoulute, DUMDUM,SHOW ME etc) Perhaps, you will pick up my habit of being objective.

[Scalaid6 Profile]

And Honest

[Jeemie Profile]

Let me help you guys. From day 1 I have prided myself on being honest. I wont change now. It seems I was WRONG about the option routes. It seems the Steelers do run them. Again, I was wrong. Sorry Ben. Substantiation comes from Limas Sweed.

In the NFL, a receiver might be required to adjust multiple ways on a single play call depending on the coverage, and be in sync with the quarterback while doing so.

"Here, you can run five different routes off a streak. You've got five different options based off five different kinds of coverages," Sweed said. "That's the biggest thing, learning the coverages. In college, they don't disguise coverages."


http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d ... nfirm=true

Maybe you'll stop making such absolute statements in the future, then.

Somehow, I doubt it.

At least you nutted up.

I always do. I have no reason to lie. I'll say it again. "I'm wrong over 100 times a day. Perfection is for God. When I'm wrong that is substantiation that I am not God"
I have NO problem saying I am wrong. Just like you guys piggy back on my statments (absoulute, DUMDUM,SHOW ME etc) Perhaps, you will pick up my habit of being objective.

You aren't objective.

After this exchange, there is no way in the world you can say with a straight face that you're objective.

On this issue, you are as far from objective as possible.

You have this notion that Ben is "football-dumb", and you will say anything to try and reinforce that notion.

[Steel Keeper Profile]

So let me get this right. Just because I made an assertion, and NOBODY asked for proof. Now when I ask for proof, then you go back and now its up to me to provide proof to my original statement? I asked for proof 1st but its up to me to provide proof? WOW. THE DESPERATION LEVEL IS HIGH.

Desperation? Stop claiming that other people are freaking out to make it seem as though you are in control. Initially, I didn't ask for proof because there was too many other awful claims and arguments you named. Sorry I overlooked something in your long post.

I cannot prove it just yet. I'll watch the game Sunday and note whenever there is an apparent miscommunication which would indicate an option route.

Lastly, it is on you to prove the affirmative of your INITIAL statement. You brought up option routes so you have to prove it. Just because you asked me to prove it first DOES NOT mean I have the burden of proof.

Let me educate you sir. Just because there is a miscommunication on a route DOESNT mean its a option route. It could be a HOT ROUTE. You or I will never know since we are not in the huddle, nor do we know the offensive philosophy and schemes. I have digressed and said "I COULD BE WRONG ON THE HOT ROUTES" But you are so DESPERATE you wont take that so you insist on proving how little football knowledge you have. WOW

Stop being so condescending. Stop calling me "sir" and don't try to "educate" me. If what you claim is true, you're a lawyer, judging by the way you speak down to people you think you are smarter than everyone else. Did it ever occur to you that other people are well-educated and as well as knowledgeable about football.

A miscommunication on a pattern is the best way for a person without direct confirmation from the team nor access to the playbook to determine whether a hot route occurred. It is not definitive but still provides a pretty good clue.

Oh and Jeemie is right. Defenses are too good not to have option routes.

[Steel Keeper Profile]

http://www.patriots.com/mediacenter/ind ... 21&pcid=85

From no less an authority than Bill Belichick

BB: What are you working on today?

Q: The Steelers had a couple of big pass plays as soon as Ty Law went out in the last game. Do their receivers a different matchup problem than some other units?

BB: Absolutely. They have two...

Q: Are their core wide receivers extremely adept at changing their routes a little bit to the adjustments with the defense?

BB: They run a lot of option routes, especially on third down. In those situations they do. Most of the time, on the early downs, they are more of a big play passing team. They run the ball. They play action. They are not always looking to get five receivers out. They get a few guys out to try to hit the holes in the defense that the play action affects. Then, on third down, they do a good job of spreading the field. They use a lot of four receiver sets with [Verron] Haynes as the back, mix in the runs, get it to him and then get it to the receivers, whether it is Randle El and Ward on a lot of read and option routes or [Lee] Mays and Burress on the intermediate to vertical stuff. I think their passing game has some different elements to it. Some of it is situational.

FTW

[StillRush Profile]

Right on the money. How can you argue being objective when you make a totally subjective claim of Ben being "too slow" to process plays and not being able to run option routes, et all. Once again I ask you, what possibly qualifies you to say that. You act as if you're inside his head or something. By your logic, we could also say that Brady and Peyton Manning are not that great and also the product of a great team, coaches and organizations surrounding them. STATS AND RESULTS ON THE FIELD seem to support the notion that Ben IS an elite QB. Nobody here says he's better than Brady or Manning, altough we may find ourselves debating so 10 years from now as their body of work thru their respective carrers can be compared on even terms. Does Ben have flaws, yes, nobody is flawless. He's still on the early stages of his career and can only improve. Is he "slow", the objective data shows he's far from that. Yes, he sometimes holds on to the ball too long, but it's usually trying to make plays down the field out of broken plays. Defenses do have something to do with how a play develops. Also, if you're gonna keep bringing up how other BUM QB's have been able to win Super Bowls because they had great teams, which in most cases is true, shows us where one of those bums was instrumental in getting their teams to the SB or one whose stats were as good as Ben's, year in and year out. Those were all "one year wonders", Ben is clearly not. Like I also said before, the QB is the single most influential player on the field on whether and team succeeds or fails. I think Ben has CONTRIBUTED A LOT this past 4+ seasons to make some good and very good Steelers teams BETTER and GREAT. He's winning % is second only to Brady's and that is the most important element when you evaluate somebody's performance in this business.
Here's to many more SB wins to come with Big Ben as our QB.

[Scalaid6 Profile]

Did I not say I was wrong about the option routes? I think ALL experts say Ben processing the info too slow and he does. The sacks are the lines problem right? lol Ok. I even provided substantiation on how I was wrong. Next time I wont help you guys
Take Ben out of the offense and the sacks arent as prevalent. Add Ben and we have many sacks. What conclusion to you come to sir? Batch started the Ravens game (last year) and threw the ball THIRTY ONE times and not ONE sack sir.
Even in the Pro Bowl who was the ONLY qb to get sacked??? BEN (twice). Behind an All Pro Line, with a no blitz rule he still got sacked twice. Is Ben dumb? Certainly not, NO NFL PLAYER IS DUMB. I have heard the terminology. I cant help that you dont like the truth. Everything I have said about Ben is TRUE. And if I have lied on him then please SHOW ME.
Lastly, SIR, is a term of respect. I respect all Steeler fans for having the knowledge to pick such a great team.

[Scalaid6 Profile]

Again, I NEVER said Ben was a bum, if I did then SHOW ME. If I ask you is Mike Tomlin a good coach due to the Steelers 5-1 record you will say "Tomlin has a good team". When I apply the same logic to Ben it doesnt apply. I say if Ben goes down we will NOT be like Dallas and the Pats, we will continue to be a good team, with Byron. Why? We have a good team. Does Ben add to it? NO QUESTION but he also takes away from it as well with lathargic play (see 1st 3 quarters of Bengals games) and senseless sacks (see Eagles/Jags playoff game). When Ben plays up to his ability (see 2nd half of Jags game) there are FEW qbs who can touch him but he doesnt always play like that. If anyone says this isnt true, well they are not being truthful. Your right the qb is the single most important person on the field and we go as they go (for the most part). So if we win the qb SHOULD get the credit but when we lose why does the line/tomlin and arians get the blame? You cant have it both ways. You want to talk about Bens career? In most of the games we win look at his stats and in most games we lose, look at his stats, you'll see a pattern.I have no problems giving Ben props and I do. By the same token you shouldnt get "brittle" when I criticize him when he doesnt play up to his ability.

[Scalaid6 Profile]

The one game we lost this season. How did Ben play? I know I know "IT WAS THE LINE" lol Did the line force him to throw that pick in double coverage? When we lost to the Cards last season was it Whisenhunts fault he threw that pick in the endzone? When we lost to the Jags was it Arians fault he had 4 turnovers? (I know I know Tomlin shouldnt have went for two lol). When we smashed the Ravens on Monday Night that was the Ben I want to see. That game was ALL HIM. Again, Ben has a good record for the same reason Tomlin has a good record. They are on a good team. If Ben played for the Texans we would not be talking about him as an elite Qb and the same goes for Tomlin. A little perspective.

[Steel Keeper Profile]

Wait, wait, so Ben is flawed and makes mistakes. Obviously that makes him worse than Eli Manning because Eli Manning doesn't make mistakes.

Ya Ben has made bad passes but to blame the Eagles loss on Ben's shoulders is ridiculous. There was nothing he could do. I've never seen a QB under pressure like that win a game. Have you?

[Jeemie Profile]

Scalaid:

Almost everyone here admits Ben's flaws.

But you trying to insist that all the sacks are pretty much entirely on him is just as bad as those who say all the struggles are entirely on the coaches.

And this is why you are not objective.

No one's saying you're lying, but your lack of objectivity causes you to make mistakes (such as your mistake on the statement "The Steelers don't run option routes because Ben is too slow to process them").

Your biases most easily are made visible by the mistakes you make.