View topic - Ben v Eli

[steelmoney Profile]

the writer is an idiot but the comparison is interesting...

As unlikely soul mates from the class of 2004, Eli Manning and Ben Roethlisberger have made an even-steven 61 regular-season starts. At first and second glance, their statistics suggest a mismatch that would have made Old Man Rooney proud.

In fact, when the Steelers and Giants meet Sunday in Pittsburgh, Roethlisberger will carry the following career advantages over Manning to the center of the field:

More touchdown passes (93 to 85); fewer interceptions (57 to 68); a higher completion percentage (63.2 to 55.4); a superior quarterback rating (93.0 to 74.9); and a better regular-season record (44-17 to 35-26).

So naturally, if a re-draft were ordered prior to the opening coin toss, you would reverse the fortunes of the two quarterbacks and take Manning at No. 11 and Roethlisberger at No. 1.

I would not.

Everything changed in a New York minute last winter, when the maddeningly inconsistent Manning ripped off consecutive postseason victories over Tony Romo, Brett Favre and Tom Brady to give the Giants the most improbable Super Bowl title since the one claimed by Joe Namath's Jets.

Suddenly, Eli was the equal of big brother Peyton, a Super Bowl MVP universally hailed for his precision and poise.

I believe Eli will end up with a better career than Roethlisberger's, if only by a margin the length of his chinstrap.

"You can't go wrong with either one of them," said former Giants general manager Ernie Accorsi. "But I have absolutely no regard for statistics when it comes to evaluating quarterbacks. I only care about wins, whether a guy can get you into the end zone and whether he can make the play on third and long.

"I had Eli rated a smidgeon higher than Roethlisberger in the draft, and I'd still rank them the same way."

Accorsi doesn't come to the debate without his professional biases. After all, his legacy will be defined by the biggest trade of his life — Philip Rivers and three draft choices for Archie's youngest son.

"Our whole strategy was to go with Roethlisberger at No. 4 if we couldn't get Eli," Accorsi said, "and there are no ifs, ands or buts about it. We were at every one of Roethlisberger's workouts. I went to (the GMAC Bowl) in Mobile when he played Louisville and he was sensational.

"Roethlisberger was clearly our second choice, but we just liked Eli a little better."

A couple of years later, Accorsi's move made Minnesota's decision to send a dynasty to Dallas for Herschel Walker look brilliant in comparison. Roethlisberger racked up 14 consecutive victories as a rookie before losing the AFC title game to Brady's Patriots, and for an encore, he mocked the notion of a sophomore jinx by leading the Steelers to a Super Bowl triumph over Seattle.

Meanwhile, Manning was going 1-6 as a rookie before betraying an 11-5 second year by getting shut out (by Carolina) in his first playoff game.

As recently as last November, when he was busy throwing four interceptions against the Vikings, three of them returned for touchdowns, Eli was little more than a living monument to bad body language and worse aim. Accorsi could no longer watch; he drove away from the Minnesota game before halftime. The GM was already retired, but Manning appeared hellbent on getting the head coach fired.

So Tom Coughlin might've been the most surprised witness of all when Manning nearly ruined the Patriots' 15-0 start before starting on a postseason roll that did ruin the Patriots' 18-0 season. Eli outplayed Favre in conditions that would've left Lombardi's Packers shivering before a fire, and then he outplayed Brady in a room-temperature Super Bowl that forever altered the dynamic of Manning's career.

Eli joined Joe Montana as the only Super Bowl quarterbacks to throw for a pair of go-ahead scores in the fourth quarter. Eli joined Montana and Bobby Layne as the only T-formation era quarterbacks to win a title on a come-from-behind touchdown pass.

Manning threw for 152 yards in that epic fourth quarter and finished off drives of 80 and 83 yards. Before the clinching drive, the one shaped by Eli's remarkable escape from the Patriots' rush and David Tyree's absurd trap against his helmet, Accorsi turned to his son Michael and said, "If he is what we thought he was going to be, he does it now. Not September 15th, right now."

Across the first six games of this year, Manning has moved the needle on his quarterback rating (89.1) and pushed his completion rate north of 60 percent, into Roethlisberger territory. Eli has thrown for 226 more yards than Big Ben, but Roethlisberger has thrown one more touchdown pass and one fewer interception.

So why go with the Giants' quarterback over the Steelers' quarterback?

"In my opinion, we asked more of Eli in the first four years than the Steelers asked of Ben," Accorsi said. "(Pittsburgh) had the better balanced team."


Either way, Roethlisberger is a hell of a football player. He was the youngest Super Bowl-winning quarterback at age 23, and on the way to the big game, he made a season-saving tackle on the Colts' Nick Harper that Manning wouldn't have made in his wildest dreams.

In 2004, Roethlisberger also defeated Manning, 33-30, in their only head-to-head meeting.

But here's why I think Eli's future will be a shade brighter than Ben's:


Eli is 1-0 in the postseason vs. the ultimate measuring stick, Brady; Roethlisberger is 0-1.

Eli was MVP of Super Bowl XLII; Roethlisberger was a dreadful participant in Super Bowl XL.

Eli defeated one of the greatest teams of all time to win his title; Roethlisberger beat the Seahawks, with some help from the refs, to win his.

Roethlisberger takes too many hits for too many lost yards — he's been sacked 164 times, or 65 times more than Manning.

Eli owns the most important talent of all — the ability to stay on the field. He hasn't missed a single start since being given the job; Eli played through the slightly separated shoulder last year that reportedly would keep him out for a month.

Manning has grown up in the tougher, noisier market, has weathered brutal criticism from the media and the fans and has managed the heavy expectations that come with being a Manning and a No. 1 overall pick.
If Roethlisberger has been comfortable in his NFL skin from Day 1, Manning is just now getting comfortable in his. Eli has the larger upside to work with over the next five or so years.

In the end, there's no wrong answer to the question of Roethlisberger or Manning, Eli or Big Ben. Manning is the NFL's Opie Taylor; he'll never be on the bad end of a Joba Chamberlain headline. Roethlisberger? He showed great fortitude in coming back from a serious motorcycle crash.

"I'm 100 percent a fan of Ben's," Accorsi said. "He's been great for the Steelers. But if I had to go back to the draft, I'd take Eli all over again."

Even if the stats argue differently, so would I.

[Steel Keeper Profile]

But I have absolutely no regard for statistics when it comes to evaluating quarterbacks.

1. Brett Favre
2. Dan Marino
3. John Elway
4. Warren Moon
5. Fran Tarkenton

All in, or will be in, the HOF once Favre is 5 years retired. The top 5 in career passing yards. So statistics mean nothing? My god, this is such an unbelievably stupid comment. It is always used by a stubborn person when they refuse to admit their mistake even though all the OBJECTIVE numbers prove them wrong.

I only care about wins, whether a guy can get you into the end zone and whether he can make the play on third and long.

Roethlisberger: 44-17 reg. season; 5-2 playoffs
E. Manning: 36-26 reg. season; 4-2 playoffs

Oh, I'm sorry. Those are other statistics aren't they. My fault, they don't count either. We must trust you Ernie Accorsi and you're preconceived notion and determination to make your own screw up look okay.

Across the first six games of this year, Manning has moved the needle on his quarterback rating (89.1) and pushed his completion rate north of 60 percent, into Roethlisberger territory. Eli has thrown for 226 more yards than Big Ben, but Roethlisberger has thrown one more touchdown pass and one fewer interception.

Wait, wait! Those are numbers. They don't mean anything, don't you know!?! Even is you look at statistics through the context of reality, they mean nothing, right Ernie?

Oh, and Eli has thrown 39 more passes than Ben. Yeah, that's a statistic and viewed through the right context (the Steelers throw less than any other team when ahead in the second half, when the opposing defense is most likely to stack the run making passing easier) we can effectively compare Ben and Eli using that gobbledy-goop called statistics.

"In my opinion, we asked more of Eli in the first four years than the Steelers asked of Ben," Accorsi said. "(Pittsburgh) had the better balanced team."

Hmm, maybe it was because Roethlisberger wasn't throwing pick sixes and leading his team to opening drive TDs that he didn't have to play catch-up. Best, but not only examples, AFC playoffs 2005 season.

But here's why I think Eli's future will be a shade brighter than Ben's:

Oh god, [cringing] oh god, this is going to hurt my head

Eli is 1-0 in the postseason vs. the ultimate measuring stick, Brady; Roethlisberger is 0-1.

Eli was MVP of Super Bowl XLII; Roethlisberger was a dreadful participant in Super Bowl XL.

Eli defeated one of the greatest teams of all time to win his title; Roethlisberger beat the Seahawks, with some help from the refs, to win his.

Wow, that was worse than I imagined. So Eli is better because Manning had a very good game in the Super Bowl and Ben stunk in his (which they won which is all that I thought matter. Ernie, back me up here). And Ben lost to the Patriots in the playoffs in his rookie season while Eli was busy sh!%*&^ all over him self his rookie year. You're main argument is that Eli played well in SBXLII, what an absurdly small sample size. My ears are going to start bleeding soon.

Roethlisberger takes too many hits for too many lost yards — he's been sacked 164 times, or 65 times more than Manning.

Eli owns the most important talent of all — the ability to stay on the field. He hasn't missed a single start since being given the job; Eli played through the slightly separated shoulder last year that reportedly would keep him out for a month.

First of all, Ben has been playing with a separated shoulder. And did you ever think that terrible pass blocking could account for some of the difference. Granted, taking too many sacks is Ben's biggest weakness, but most of that gap is due to poor pass blocking. You also don't take into account all the sacks he breaks and comes up with big plays. Like the Tyree play that you gushed about.

But your only argument outside "Eli was awesome in the Super Bowl" is that Ben is sacked a lot. Wow, talk about looking at statistics without perspective.

Ben can't stay on the field? He's missed 5 games due to injury in his career. One b/c of an emergency appendectomy. I hope Ben doesn't reaggravate that. Wait, so could a terrible o-line explain a QB getting injured a lot, hmm.

If Roethlisberger has been comfortable in his NFL skin from Day 1, Manning is just now getting comfortable in his. Eli has the larger upside to work with over the next five or so years.

So, because Eli was atrocious to begin with he is going to be better eventually. Even though most scouts said Ben had the highest upside of all the QBs from the 2004 draft and Eli was the safer bet with a lower ceiling. Yikes, just yikes.

This guy probably loves Jerry Manuel and his efforts to make the Mets "clutcher".

[darthsteel Profile]

This is commical considering ben has hall of fame numbers through 4.5 yrs and eli has numbers that would get most backups cut!

Eli has 4 good games under his belt , so lets throw out 4 yrs of journeymen qb play, thats like saying mark rypian is better then dan marino because he was sb mvp and had a nice playoff run!

If you look at thier stats and win loss record there is just nothing to compare so why bother?

[Scalaid6 Profile]

"In my opinion, we asked more of Eli in the first four years than the Steelers asked of Ben," Accorsi said. "(Pittsburgh) had the better balanced team."

Either way, Roethlisberger is a hell of a football player. He was the youngest Super Bowl-winning quarterback at age 23, and on the way to the big game, he made a season-saving tackle on the Colts' Nick Harper that Manning wouldn't have made in his wildest dreams.

But here's why I think Eli's future will be a shade brighter than Ben's:


Eli is 1-0 in the postseason vs. the ultimate measuring stick, Brady; Roethlisberger is 0-1.

Eli was MVP of Super Bowl XLII; Roethlisberger was a dreadful participant in Super Bowl XL.

Eli defeated one of the greatest teams of all time to win his title; Roethlisberger beat the Seahawks,

Roethlisberger takes too many hits for too many lost yards — he's been sacked 164 times, or 65 times more than Manning.

Eli owns the most important talent of all — the ability to stay on the field. He hasn't missed a single start since being given the job; Eli played through the slightly separated shoulder last year that reportedly would keep him out for a month.

Manning has grown up in the tougher, noisier market, has weathered brutal criticism from the media and the fans and has managed the heavy expectations that come with being a Manning and a No. 1 overall pick.
If Roethlisberger has been comfortable in his NFL skin from Day 1, Manning is just now getting comfortable in his. Eli has the larger upside to work with over the next five or so years.

"I'm 100 percent a fan of Ben's," Accorsi said. "He's been great for the Steelers. But if I had to go back to the draft, I'd take Eli all over again."

Even if the stats argue differently, so would I

.

The guy who wrote the Article is an idiot just because he doesnt agree with you? I AGREE WITH THE ARTICLE 100%
But the thing the writer left out is UNDERSTANDING. Eli possesses more. Ben has better tools but make no mistake about it Eli reads defenses better and the offense can be more diverse with him at the controls.

[Steel_Buckeye Profile]

I'm not worried, if Ben is anything he is a winner! But to me AS A FAN, my friend, winning a championship is all that matters! I would of rather had Brad Johnson, Mark Rypen, ect. for that one super season, than 10 great years of Marino with no championships. Eli has a great team now, but I think he is unable to put a mediocre team on his shoulders, Ben could. I agree Eli is playing exceptional at this point in time, but we will see 5 years down the road at the full body of work, and IMHO, Ben will be on top!

[Suwanee88 Profile]

The only way Ben answers Accorsi - is to beat the shit out of the NY FOOTBALL GIANTS this weekend - end of story.

[McLovin Profile]

Good post and good time for this little debate with the G-Men coming to town. McLovin is a Manning fan. However, what is Scalaid basing the statement that Manning has more "UNDERSTANDING" than Ben? How can you prove Manning reads defenses better, understands his offense better? Have you scouted Mannings games? Would it be a good guess that like the rest of us Scalaid you've only seen Eli play in prime time when Steelers not playing and not every game he has played. We are talking about a player who was on the verge of being label a bust in NY just 2 seasons ago. Ben never close to being labeled a bust. McLovin not a big stats guy either but isn't it fair to say that the talent on both the Giants and the Steelers especially on offense the past 4 years has been relatively even? If you can agree that Eli and Ben have same talent to work with as McLovin believes they do then doesn't it in fact boil down to stats to determine who has the better "UNDERSTANDING?"

A sign that a quarterback can read defenses and is running his team's offense efficiently is how many interceptions a quarterback throws. Eli has 11 more in his career. Ben's highest interception total came when he was coming off his near fatal motorcycle accident. I think even Scalaid will agree that the coaches mishandled that situation by playing Ben too soon. Ron Jaworski perhaps the only guy ESPN has that understands football places high emphasis on the qb rating as how efficiently a quarterback is operating an NFL system. Ben overwhelming edge 93-74. Accorsi made a dumb statement saying he only cares about wins. Of course he is going to say that Ben has superior stats. At any rate Ben again overwhelming edge in winning percentage and as McLovin said Eli and Ben have very similar talent to work with so you can't say Ben winning because of a superior team.

Another statement Accorsi made that McLovin takes issue with is him saying they asked more out of Eli the first four years than Steelers did of Ben. Ben thrown to the wolves when Tommy Maddox went down and led them to playoffs in his rookie year. Ben came out as junior in college mind you lending credence to his impressive start to his career. How does Accorsi say Ben had more balanced team? Sure Ben relied on Bettis and the running game but Eli relied heavily on Tiki Barber who was not only a very good all-around running back he was one of Eli's biggest critics saying he was not a leader and not dedicated enough to learning the position.

McLovin does view Manning a close second to Roethlisberger after Eli's impressive playoff run and good start to this season. But is Eli doing any better than Ben stastically this year? How about their respective records this year? How about that this year the NY Giants offensive line one of the best in football and Ben's among the worst. Like Scalaid, McLovin sometimes finds it maddening when Ben holds the ball too long, but that's the competitive fire McLovin sees in Ben as opposed to Manning. Ben "UNDERSTANDS" what he is supposed to do out there just fine. It's is competitiveness to never give up on a play or his teammates that makes Ben what he is and that's one hell of a football player.

[steelmoney Profile]

The guy who wrote the Article is an idiot just because he doesnt agree with you? I AGREE WITH THE ARTICLE 100%
But the thing the writer left out is UNDERSTANDING. Eli possesses more. Ben has better tools but make no mistake about it Eli reads defenses better and the offense can be more diverse with him at the controls.[/quote]


The author of the article is an idiot not because he doesn't agree with me (though that doesn't help his cause). He is an idiot because he takes a counter-intuitive viewpoint and fails the prove it. In fact, all he really does is provide evidence which would support the opposite position. That is why he is an idiot - why you agree with him, well that is obvious.

[Scalaid6 Profile]

Mclovin and Scalaid are the same so here goes me talking to myself again.
The statement that Eli understands better than Ben can be easily proved by watching them both when they drop back to pass. Eli drops back, scans the field and his head is on a swivel, then the ball is out. Ben drops back, he looks at the rush to see how much time he has, then FOCUSES ON HINES, if hines isnt open he runs to the right (to buy time). If Ben scanned the whole field instead of just eyeing ONE wr, he would have a broader view of the field. How many times have you seen a closeup of Bens eyes and hes telling the safety where he is going to throw by staring down his target? Ben is successful highly inpart to his tools, the guy has the goods (arm). I'm on record as saying that Ben has better physical tools than any NFL Qb, in regards to size, strength and arm strength. Where Ben fails is hes slower upstairs. Bens rookie year Whisenhunt had to dummy down the offense after Maddox got hurt (rightfully so) and by whisenhunts OWN ADMISSION, Ben was slow to progress. Lets be frank. Ben was no more than a game manager. What were the results when he passed more than 20 times? We lost way more than we won. Also, Ben struggles MIGHTYLY vs the Patriots. The one time he beat them was in his second year he hit Plax for 2 tds, Deshae picked brady for 6 BUT Duce,Bettis ran the ball effectively on the pats, that was the key, WE CONTROLLED THE BALL. In fact we won the time of possession 42 minutes to SEVENTEEN!!! We played them again in the AFC Championship and won the time of possession battle once again 31 to 28 but the DIFFERENCE was Bellicheat took away the run and MADE BEN TRY TO BEAT THEM. The result was Ben passing 24 times and throwing 3ints (one for 6-Rodney).
Mclovin, I am from Philly, my wife is from New Jersey. I rep the Steelers she reps the Giants. One DVR records ALL steelers games and the one downstairs records ALL Giants games. So I am forced to watch they EVERY week. I also wath EVERY Cowboy game due to both of my brothers being Cowboy fans and in order to engage in debate with them I watch those bums to substantiate my points vs them.

Interceptions are not an indicator of a lack of understanding. All any seeker of truth has to do to substantiate this is look at the careers of Marino, Favre and John Elway. Their careers rich with ints and I dont think ANY of us would venture to say they lack understanding. In Eli's defense, the giants run ALOT of option routes. An option route is a route that the qb AND the wr have to read the defense and make the SAME decision. If they arent on the same page an int can result. The only qbs that are trusted with OPTION ROUTES in the offense are ONLY the ones with the HIGHEST of understanding in reading defenses. Current option route qbs in the NFL are Peyton, Brady, Brees, Eli, Kurt Warner, Carson to name a few. Ben Roethlisberger is NOT on the list. WHY? Due to his lack of UNDERSTANDING. Please save the "Ben doesnt run option routes because Arians is an idiot" remarks. Ken Whisenhunt lets Kurt Warner run option routes but didnt trust Ben to do so, WHY?? Whisenhunt allows Matt Leinart to do so but not Ben again, WHY? The best indicator for lack of understanding is SACKS. Look at the careers of Michael Vick and Randall Cunningham. These are the MOST ELUSIVE Qbs in the history of the game yet when they played they were SACKED THE MOST. Why? Bad O-line or INDECISIVENESS?? Randall lead the league one year as he lead Minnesota to a 15-1 record, but LOOK AT THE SACKS that season. Any PURIST will agree that sacks occur due to the qb not processing the information fast enough and holding onto the ball too long (most). The least sacked qbs in the game right now are Drew Brees and Eli Manning (a guess not fact)due to how fast they get the ball out NOT THE LINE. We would all be hard pressed to name two members off of each of those lines.

Mclovin said Eli and Bens teams have been EQUAL. I say BS! Lets examine the two teams. In Bens tenure hes played with SEVERAL Pro-Bowlers. Casey Hampton, Alan Faneca, Hines Ward, Wille Parker, Jerome Bettis, James Harrison and Troy Palomalu (7). Eli has played with Plaxico Burress, Tiki Barber, Osi Umenyiora, Michael Strahan. Matter of fact I dont think Plax is even a Pro Bowler ( I could be wrong). The Steelers have a better running game, better receiving core, giants have a better D-line, we have better LBs and a better secondary. How is the talent equal, PLEASE EXPLAIN. We have free agents leave year in and year out and are STILL competitive. Plax was once a steeler as you recall and we won the Super Bowl without him. The Giants have has some injuries this season but not the magnitude of the Steelers. Despite our injuries we are still 5-1. In my opinion neither team has been adequately tested.
To Bens defense he didnt have the luxury of growing up with a ex NFL quarterback for a dad, nor a stud older brother who taught him the game. Make no mistake about it when Eli drops back you seldom see confusion in his actions. Ben on the other hand at times looks confused, bewildered and out right scared. If this was a battle of toughness, Ben wins HANDS DOWN. One guy commented that Ben played with a seperated shoulder. This is an attempt to make Ben as tough as Eli (due to the writer citing Elis toughness due to the injury). No need to lie or fabricate, Bens toughness SPEAKS VOLUMES. Tomlin AND Ben confirmed that the shoulder was not seperated, it was sprained.
In conclusion, we have two good young quarterbacks who are very close in regards to talent but I will ALWAYS give the edge to the smarter person and that person is Eli. In the game sunday we will have to have supreme coverage because there wont be many sacks, Eli wont hold it. And if I'm wrong, this is one time I dont mind being wrong.

[darthsteel Profile]

career stats
games started : ben 61 eli 61

attempts: ben 1588 eli 1996

completions : ben 1004 eli 1105

comp.pct.: ben 63.2 eli 55.4

yds: ben 12,836 eli 12774

avg: ben 8.1 eli 6.4

tds: ben 93 eli 85

ints: ben 57 eli 68

rating ben 93.0 eli 74.9




reg season w - L
ELI 35-26
BEN 44-17

STATS dont lie , nuff said!

obviously eli's head swivelling is not helping those interceptions he tosses up into no mans land , niether does it help his pathetic backup qb calibre comp. pct!

ben has 300 less pass attempts, yet he has 8 more td passes and more passing yds, thats a very telling stat!


ben has 36 more td passes then ints , while eli has 17 more td passes then ints, another very telling stat. Its production over a career , not whether someones head is swiveling, looking at the stats maybe eli needs to stop swiveling so much...

36 more tds compared to 17 equalls alot more wins for the guy with 36!

[Scalaid6 Profile]

Thanks for making my point. BENS ON THE BETTER TEAM.
Its funny how when rating Mike Tomlin. His success is due to coaching a loaded team and Bens success is due to being good NOT playing on a loaded team. INTERESTING.

[Scalaid6 Profile]

In the biggest games of their LIVES, who played better? Who overcame more odds? Who goes down in history for his gameplay? In Big games Ben doesnt play well (sorry) except for Colts, Broncos is 05. Other than that he lays eggs. This is a big game on Sunday I hope Ben answers the bell. I say we blow them out but not due to the play of our qb. Ben still has to prove to me he has the mental toughness in big games. With our schedule he will sure get his chance to shut me up.

[darthsteel Profile]

In the biggest games of their LIVES, who played better? Who overcame more odds? Who goes down in history for his gameplay? In Big games Ben doesnt play well (sorry) except for Colts, Broncos is 05. Other than that he lays eggs. This is a big game on Sunday I hope Ben answers the bell. I say we blow them out but not due to the play of our qb. Ben still has to prove to me he has the mental toughness in big games. With our schedule he will sure get his chance to shut me up.

lol, mark rypian had a journymen career and had his one day in the sun winning sb mvp!

scaly is gonna die when big ben accepts his bust in the hall!

better team, you mean the 6-10 team ben inherited?


incase you were not a stiller fan yet heres the ben vs eli 2004 , who choked on the last drive and who led thier team to the game winning drive?
swivel head or mr hold the ball to long?

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d801a61cd

again eli has 4 games out of a 4.5 yr career!


ben was in the super bowl at age 22 , not at a 26 yr old mature man!

loaded team lol, elis playing behind one of the best lines in the leage over the last 2 yrs and ben the worst, you have no argument scaly lol!
lets not forget elis throwing to a one of the best recievers in the game who stands 6-5 and just needs the ball within ten feet of him to catch it!


hmmmm dan marino had a awfull sb in his second season, yet trent dilfer had a solid no int winning sb, guss trent is the guy we will remember and will go down in history for his game play !


stats dont lie, end of discussion!

you can say elis head swivels, he knows the game better, he reads defense's better ,he's peyton manning brother, but when the hall of fame comes up the numbers will tell the story of who is in and who is out!
eli does all those things better , yet bens stats are rediculousy better, something just does not add up lol!

this is funny , we are nort comparing a 93 passer rating to an 88, we are comparing 93 to 75 ohhhh lord, do you realize ben would have to put up numbers like he did in 06 for the next 5 yrs and eli would have to put up ben like numbers from last season to be anywhere near ben stat wise?

[McLovin Profile]

First off McLovin would like to thank Scalaid for not calling me names like "Dum Dum." You've been busy stirring it up today. McLovin thought that by Ben only throwing 20 times a game that meant we were running the ball and controlling the clock to protect a lead. I'm not sure what Arians philosophy is but I know that was Cowher and Whis' philosophy to win a football game. What's wrong with a qb managing the game? Of course Whis had to dumb down the offense his rookie year he came out as a junior from Miami of Ohio not Miami Florida. You can't tell McLovin that Steelers weren't planning on sitting Ben for at least a year as they commonly do their rookies so he could get acclamated with the system. Even if Whis did dumb down the offense his stats still superior to Eli in every meaningful category which is the point of the thread to debate the more successful qb.

As for Scalaids comments about Favre and Marino throwing a high number of picks they also played in offenses that threw more. You throw more you get more yards and touchdowns, but also more picks. Bradshaw was a game manager much of his career just like Ben. Bradshaw played under same restraints as Ben...run the ball and play good defense....it cuts down on your hall of fame stats but you win football games....THAT'S THE STEELER WAY AND ITS WON US 5 SUPER BOWLS....OH AND BEN'S STATS STILL SUPERIOR TO ELI

On to Scalaids comments about Ben struggling in big games against the Pats what qb hasn't struggled against a Bellicheck defense? Look how long it took Peyton to beat Belicheck. Who knows maybe Bill was in fact stealing signals making Ben's job that much harder.

Now McLovin is no Bill Walsh but so what if the Steelers don't run an option route offense. They won 5 Super Bowls without it. So Ben doesn't run it , maybe Scalaid is right Ben is dumb so whatHIS STATISTICAL RESULTS ARE STILL BETTER THAN ELI AS NEARLY EVERY POSTER ON HERE HAS PROVEN SCALAIDDidn't Bill Walton try to teach that offense to Bubby Brister of all people?

As for the debate about the talent of each team over the past 4 years perhaps the Steelers have a slight edge but the giants have had plenty of good players for Eli. Tiki Barber multiple pro bowl running back, Jeremy Shockey pro-bowl tight end and another Eli basher just like Tiki. Plax much better than Holmes and close to Hines when his head is on straight. Eli's oline far superior to Ben's the past 2 years with Dave Diehl and Chris Snee signing huge contract extensions this off season. Defensively the Steelers have a slight edge...especially if you like stats...oh wait Scalaid disdains stats for Ben so must for the defense as well. So take some players on those teams. McLovin contends that the Giants had the better pass rushers in those years with Umenyiora, Strahan, and now Tuck but concedes the LB play overall better for steelers with only Antonio Pierce a standout for the Giants. McLovin acknowledges Ben has slightly overall better d than the giants...all stats aside right Scalaid?

Finally, Scalaid actually not giving Eli enough credit. His signature throw in the Super Bowl under an all out blitz to Domenick Hixon happened BECAUSE HE HELD ONTO THE BALL TOO LONG! He took a viscious hit and completed a pass that ultimately won his team the super bowl.

[Scalaid6 Profile]

How am I throwing stats aside? The STATS MAKE MY CASE. Ben plays on a better team. Why did the Giants draft before the steelers in the draft that year? CAUSE THEY HAD A WORSE RECORD. The Steelers had a 6-10 record due to PHILOSOPHY not talent. We went to the pass and TAMMY let us down. Like I said with our schedule Ben will have his chance to shut me up. Have I seen strides in Bens progress? Yes. Do I trust him if we are down 4 with 1:20 left and we need a td. NOT YET. Time will tell. One thing for sure, either you guys will have a field day with me this season or I will get banned from this site for saying I told you so too many times. STAY TUNED

[darthsteel Profile]

as usual scalehead ads comedy to the site, arguing these stats lol!

[Scalaid6 Profile]

Again, show me where I argued stats. Bens stats make my case, he plays on a better team. But BOTH have 3 playoff appearances and 1 super bowl. Bens success is due to the GREAT STEELER TEAMS.You homers have put up arguements that Ben is better than Brady and Peyton so I know its like beating a dead horse but one thing you find about me. I'M A GREAT ASSESSOR OF TALENT. Is Ben talented? Yes. But his downfall is his MENATLITY.He processes the information too slow. Hes too nice, not a butthole and that matters. Worth noting the Steelers went 13-3 with Kordell, was he great? I REST MY CASE.

[StillRush Profile]

Hey all, first time poster but a long time guest and lifelong die hard Stiller fan here. Here are my two cents on this topic, specially with regards to Scalaid6 remarks, whose opinions I usually respect even if I don't always agree with him (hey, I don't wanna start off having grudges with people after my first post )

I agree that part of Ben's amazing success over 4+ seasons might be because of the great Steelers teams HE'S BEEN A PART OF. So couldn't it be that those teams were and are great because he's been a part of them, and a major contributor at that. I guess we can all agree that the QB position is the single most influential player on whether a football team has success or failure, right? Stats may or may not tell the whole story depending on the situation, but the only stat I care about is if we win or lose, and Ben is the best so far behind only Brady in that department (winning %). Also, physical tools can only get you so far in the pros, as there are and have been boatloads of other players with similar or better physical attributes than Ben and yet so many of them failed miserably at this level. How do you figure he's too slow processing plays, are you inside his head or have you been a pro football QB to even begin to ponder on whether he does or not. His RESULTS ON THE FIELD certainly don't support your assesment. The guy has excellent stats so far in his young career, already a SB ring, and will only get better as he continues to grow.
Eli Manning is certainly a very good QB and will become better too, but so far I believe Ben has proven to be the most successful QB of his generation, and will most likely continue to do so in the future, as he is part of THE best franchise in the NFL. GO STEELERS!!

[octopoon Profile]

Have I seen strides in Bens progress? Yes. Do I trust him if we are down 4 with 1:20 left and we need a td. NOT YET. Time will tell. One thing for sure, either you guys will have a field day with me this season or I will get banned from this site for saying I told you so too many times. STAY TUNED

As of the JAX game, Ben has 15 game winning drives in the fourth quarter or overtime. However, Eli Manning is the only quarterback in history to lead a last-minute, championship-winning touchdown drive – at least when he absolutely positively needed a touchdown and when anything less would have meant failure.

[Steel Keeper Profile]

The author of the article is an idiot not because he doesn't agree with me (though that doesn't help his cause). He is an idiot because he takes a counter-intuitive viewpoint and fails the prove it. In fact, all he really does is provide evidence which would support the opposite position. That is why he is an idiot - why you agree with him, well that is obvious.

Took the words out of my mouth.

Second, is this Scalaid guy always this horrendous. He obviously never learned to properly argue His arguments and evidence are incredibly weak. I'm not a big fan of name calling, but he seems like a very unintelligent person. Not because I disagree with his opinions but because his arguments are so terribly flawed (I just don't know where to begin to dissect all the jumps in logic and incorrect conclusions not to mention voluntarily ignoring evidence to the contrary) and his thought process is so obviously flawed. Really quite shocking.