View topic - Stillers-Dolphs Postgame Analysis and Grades

[Matthew1516 Profile]

Ridiculous. Some people have no idea how good we have had it. Look -- is Brees a bad QB because the Saints didn't make the playoffs last year? The defense has been abysmal this year, and the offensive line has been worse. To blame this season on Ben is to demonstrate an extreme ignorance of football.

[StillDodger Profile]

Blaming Ben for our current problems would be like blaming the sun for the cold weather..... With most starting quarterbacks in this league, the Steelers might be a 1-15 type team. At best.

Just look at the other positions....

RB.... Below average.
TE.... Average. (Thanks to Heath.)
RCV..... Average. (Thanks to AB.)
OL..... Well below average. (Maybe the bottom five in the NFL.)

DL..... Average.
LB..... Slightly below average.
DB.... Well below average. (Maybe the bottom five in the NFL.)

K..... Average.
P..... Below average.
Returns..... Average.
Return coverage..... Well below average.

The only position that's "well above average" right now is the QB position.

[relictele Profile]

P..... Below average.

or P....who is it this week?

[LenSherwood Profile]

If you google the salary cap for the Steelers you will see Ohio's point about the tremendous problems the Steelers face. You have about ten players occupying an enormous amount of it, so you are stuck with shitty offensive linemen. I don't know if BR will restructure his contract...I think that the trade talk by his agent had a purpose. Because of his off field problems, Ben will never again make any money off of product endorsements. As soon as a company wanted to use him, a woman's group would be there to boycott it. So he has to max out his player salary. Ben aside, you have to get rid of guys like Woodley--a huge cap hit.

But you cannot go into the offseason thinking that you can sign a new punter and a third string TE as Mill says... this team has to be overhauled. And Tomlin is not the person to do that nor is Colbert now.

[Ohio Profile]

Ridiculous. Some people have no idea how good we have had it. Look -- is Brees a bad QB because the Saints didn't make the playoffs last year? The defense has been abysmal this year, and the offensive line has been worse. To blame this season on Ben is to demonstrate an extreme ignorance of football.

Matthew a True Leader wouldn't have let us slip to 0-4.

Last time I saw it was the Offense that was Putrid.

You are talking about Ben like he was Jesus Christ. He is slightly above average. I give you a link http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap200000 ... arters-132

Ben is @8. Fair enough.

This Offseason they have to do something about him. Extend or trade this is the Offseason.

How much he will ask and sign, in case he stays, will tell you everything you need to know about him and the future of this franchise.

I am not scared about a new QB mostly because of the new CBA. Teams are not paying ridiculous Rookie Contracts anymore. Franchises have learnt enough from Tim Couch and others busts.

I am really scared that , once extended, Ben gets back to his usual self of 11 / 12 games a season... It seems really strange that this year, so critical for his contract, he didn't miss a game yet...

Going back to what I previously wrote regarding coaches :

Offensive Minded HC give you a good passing game no matter what. You have the luxury to play the back-up and have good results. See the Trestman and Chip Kelly situation.

What I do not understand is : If we have an Offensive Guru ( LeBeau), and his defense is all about the LB, WHY DID WE HAVE TO MAKE A OLB OUR HIGHEST PAID PLAYER ? I mean, Shouldn't the guru, with his scheme, be able to transform a No-Name into an Instant Star?

[High5 Profile]

Ohio , I totally disagree with you. I believe Matthew makes much more sense. Get a clue. Ben IS a very good QB, put the right players around him and he will do nothing but win. Look at his numbers and he does have two rings. The Steelers have never had a stud offensive line w/ Ben. The organization should have been ontop of that way back, instead of like 3 yrs ago.

[isfry Profile]

Matthew a True Leader wouldn't have let us slip to 0-4.

Last time I saw it was the Offense that was Putrid.

You are talking about Ben like he was Jesus Christ. He is slightly above average. I give you a link http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap200000 ... arters-132

Ben is @8. Fair enough.

First of all, that link shows one truth, that there are stats to "back up" any premise. Fine. Ben is listed #8 on Greg Rosenthal's list. Whatever. First, let's just presume that Brady, Manning, Brees, and even Rodgers (who is still riding his rep from a couple years ago, as far as I'm concerned) are legitimately above Ben on the list.

As for Rivers, Wilson, and Stafford? Look at these numbers:

Rivers - 26 TD, 9 INT, 3882 yds
Wilson - 23 TD, 7 INT, 2871 yds
Stafford - 27 TD, 14 INT, 3873 yds
Ben - 24 TD, 10 INT, 3724 yds

Basically, none of those guys outclasses Ben, even on the stat sheet. Any one of the four of those guys could be a legitimate #5 in the league on another list, and each of them probably is. Wilson, by the way, has the luxury of playing with the #1 overall defense and the #3 overall rushing offense behind him which makes his job WAY, WAY easier than Ben's. Let's see what he would do starting at his own 5 half his drives, and down by 14 every fucking Sunday, behind our O-line, no less.

Which brings me to my second point. You glibly point out that a leader doesn't let his team go 0-4, disregarding at least two things. One, our starting RB was NOT PLAYING in those four games, having been injured in the preseason. We averaged 58 yards per game on the ground in those four games. 58 yards per game. Not much support for Ben.

Two, our pro-bowl starting center was NOT PLAYING in those four games, having been knocked out on the first series of game one by his own teammate. Our already questionable O-line was forced to scramble to move around and play new positions. Starting in week two Velasco, who has worked out quite nicely in the long run, was starting his first games ever in a Steeler uni and for Haley's offense. Ben was sacked fifteen times in those four games. Fifteen times. He was only sacked 24 times in the ten games that followed. 24 is still a high number, but averaging almost four sacks a game for the first four games while the O-line pieced itself together and the RB by committee gained NOTHING on the ground is horrendous.

You state that the last time you looked it was the offense that was putrid? I guess the last time you looked was in October, cuz here's some offensive numbers from the last six weeks:

31 points (loss).
23 points (win).
37 points (win).
27 points (win).
20 points (loss).
28 points (loss).

When your offense averages over 26 points per game in the three losses I can't see where they take the blame, let alone the lion's share of it, in your estimation. Ben, by the way, during that 3-3 stretch threw 16 touchdowns to only three interceptions.

I cannot disagree more with your pinning this season on the offense, especially not on Ben. Our defense has been swiss cheese. Our special teams has been horrible in all but FGs kicked, and even that helped cost us the Raiders game when Suisham missed his only two of the year, two chip shots in a game we lost by 3.

As for what Ben will accept insofar as salary re-structuring this offseason, we will all have to wait and see. But please, before we throw him under the bus for what we presume he will do because he can't get a fucking Subway commercial, let's wait to see how it plays out. I, for one, am hopeful he will do the right thing for his team and restructure his salary in such a way that it allows for two things; Ben to retire as a Steeler, and the team to be able to put some money where it needs to fill holes (punter and a third string TE...)

[Ohio Profile]

Ben IS a very good QB, put the right players around him and he will do nothing but win. Look at his numbers and he does have two rings. The Steelers have never had a stud offensive line w/ Ben.

I agree that Ben is a very good QB. I think that we shouldn't lose perspective. Those guys are the best at their job. Out of how many thousands QBs in America? But if we consider it in the NFL he is not Elite. Good, sometimes very good. But he has never been Elite.

And he is the problem with the offensive line. His playing style would make any Offensive Line look bad. No quick throws and a lot of scrambling. I would like to know who would survive this ?

Which brings me to my second point. You glibly point out that a leader doesn't let his team go 0-4, disregarding at least two things. One, our starting RB was NOT PLAYING in those four games, having been injured in the preseason. We averaged 58 yards per game on the ground in those four games.

Fry My point is exactly that. If Ben was Elite, he should have been able to overcome his rushing offense.

I cannot disagree more with your pinning this season on the offense, especially not on Ben. Our defense has been swiss cheese.

I agree that our defense has been swiss cheese. But Ben has to take some of the blame. If he is such a Hall of Fame QB two straight non playoff seasons are not acceptable. Even worse given the " quality" of our losses.

After having season a season in which back-up QBs like Foles ( 7 td against the same Oakland Raiders ) or McCown ( scored with all possession except the final kneel downs this past Monday...) I am not scared of changing QB.

What we should really focus on should be a GM and, mostly , a Head Coach. It will be up to having Ben on our roster as much as Having a Elite HC on our bench. Tomlin is not that guy. And expect growing pains in case we should keep him one season or more. Ben is not able to overcome this problem. Only Payton Manning could...

[Matthew1516 Profile]

Though Ben has great stats, you can't just look at stats. This is how fantasy football nerds make decisions, not how football teams make decisions. If Big Ben throwing in a dome to a freak like Megatron who catches everything? Does Ben have the offensive line and running game that an unaccomplished dwarf like Russell Wilson? Again, was Brees substandard because the Saints had a losing record last year? I defy you to put another QB in this league at Ben's position, and have him behind the offensive lines that Ben has had, with the non-descript talent at skill positions that Ben has had, playing in our stadium 8 weeks a year, and to come up with better results. Ben has never been focused on stuffing the stat sheet, even though his stats are great. Not a single one of those other QBs could have won here under the same circumstances in my opinion, except for possibly Rodgers. Manning certainly couldn't. Notice how most of those QBs are dome QBs or warm climate QBs? Shouldn't that be part of the analysis? And while Brady is fantastic and probably is better with the Pats than Ben would have been for the Pats, I don't think Brady would have been as successful as Ben is here. The secret to beating Brady is finding a way to hit him in the mouth, and Ben has been taking weekly hits in the mouth for 9 plus weeks here and somehow making plays and winning more titles than Brady has since Ben has been in the league.

One final question. How many skill position players that Ben has played with have gone to another team and done anything of substance? Name a running back that played with Big Ben and then was a pro bowler somewhere else. Plaxico was the only receiver who went anywhere else and accomplished anything. That's the real measure. Big Ben makes average players better.

[Ohio Profile]

If Big Ben throwing in a dome to a freak like Megatron who catches everything? Does Ben have the offensive line and running game that an unaccomplished dwarf like Russell Wilson? Again, was Brees substandard because the Saints had a losing record last year? I defy you to put another QB in this league at Ben's position, and have him behind the offensive lines that Ben has had, with the non-descript talent at skill positions that Ben has had, playing in our stadium 8 weeks a year, and to come up with better results. Ben has never been focused on stuffing the stat sheet, even though his stats are great. Not a single one of those other QBs could have won here under the same circumstances in my opinion, except for possibly Rodgers. Manning certainly couldn't. Notice how most of those QBs are dome QBs or warm climate QBs? Shouldn't that be part of the analysis? And while Brady is fantastic and probably is better with the Pats than Ben would have been for the Pats, I don't think Brady would have been as successful as Ben is here. The secret to beating Brady is finding a way to hit him in the mouth, and Ben has been taking weekly hits in the mouth for 9 plus weeks here and somehow making plays and winning more titles than Brady has since Ben has been in the league.

One final question. How many skill position players that Ben has played with have gone to another team and done anything of substance? Name a running back that played with Big Ben and then was a pro bowler somewhere else. Plaxico was the only receiver who went anywhere else and accomplished anything. That's the real measure. Big Ben makes average players better.

Matthew We will never agree. I bet everything that the following 5 QBs would have done much much better than Ben :

Payton Manning ( THE BEST REGULAR SEASON QB EVER. Playoff he is a different story but this guy, for how I hate him, is winning 9 games a year by himself)
Tom Brady ( Hands down my choice as Playoff QB )
Russell Wilson ( The Dwarf... ahahahahah. He is so good in so many things... See you later in the year... The guy is 7 years younger than Ben and in his Second Season. One of the greatest draft steal ever)
Aaron Rodgers ( See above. Little bigger but also slower )
Drew Brees ( Maybe the best thrower in the league as of now. )

Those are clearly head and shoulder above Ben. No doubt I would switch in a second. NO DOUBT.

Than you have a bunch of guys that are pretty close. Ben is in there. It depends on the period... Sometimes they are hot and sometimes they are cold. But no one is clearly above the others ( Eli got hot in two playoffs... ).

But Above all , the one thing they I believe is fundamental is the HEAD COACH.

If you have a Belichick, a Chip Kelly, a Trestman, a Sean Peyton, one of the Harbaugh brothers( yes... unfortunately), Andy Reid you will compete no matter what. No injury will slow you down. If you have the others it will depend on a bunch of staff.

In today's game it is the OFFENSE that wins championships. And with this I mean not only the QB but The HC and the OC.

Those guys above know how to bring the best out of their roster. They know how to playcall. They know how to develop talent. They know how to use a QB.

Maybe Ben would have been so much better with another OC or HC. He looks much much better in the no huddle... But we never use it. And this game is not about potential is about result, is about "what have you done for me lately?". Ben hasn't done enough in the last two years. I have no doubt that we would have been in the playoffs with Peyton Manning. No Doubt with Brady, No Doubt with Wilson, No doubt with Rodgers, no doubt with Brees

[isfry Profile]

Ohio, I hate to say it but I think we are all unrealistic in hoping that Tomlin gets the axe. I certainly hope so, as I have indicated and agreed with on multiple threads. I also think Haley is a complete bust. I also think that all five of the QBs you mention would have gotten the respect from the front office to have a say in the firing of an OC and which OC to replace him with. The Steelers dropped the ball in alienating and excluding Ben from that. Plenty of people have called Ben a prima donna for that whole scenario, but I think it showed a complete lack of awareness on the part of the front office and a complete lack of organizational respect for a QB that at least had a hand in bringing the team to three SBs and winning two of 'em.

My guess for the changes in the offseason is as follows: Ben stays, Tomlin stays, Colbert stays, and Haley goes. I would get rid of two other guys on that list and neither of them wears a number 7 on his back.

I also agree with you that the HC and the OC are a HUGE problem in Pitt. I just don't agree with throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Ben deserves to stay, as long as he does the right thing for his team in the offseason which, by the way, may depend more on his agent than him. Anybody have any info on Ryan Toller's track record for salary renegotiations?

[Ohio Profile]

Ohio, I hate to say it but I think we are all unrealistic in hoping that Tomlin gets the axe. I certainly hope so, as I have indicated and agreed with on multiple threads. I also think Haley is a complete bust. I also think that all five of the QBs you mention would have gotten the respect from the front office to have a say in the firing of an OC and which OC to replace him with. The Steelers dropped the ball in alienating and excluding Ben from that. Plenty of people have called Ben a prima donna for that whole scenario, but I think it showed a complete lack of awareness on the part of the front office and a complete lack of organizational respect for a QB that at least had a hand in bringing the team to three SBs and winning two of 'em.

My guess for the changes in the offseason is as follows: Ben stays, Tomlin stays, Colbert stays, and Haley goes. I would get rid of two other guys on that list and neither of them wears a number 7 on his back.

I also agree with you that the HC and the OC are a HUGE problem in Pitt. I just don't agree with throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Ben deserves to stay, as long as he does the right thing for his team in the offseason which, by the way, may depend more on his agent than him. Anybody have any info on Ryan Toller's track record for salary renegotiations?

Isfry let's see how we close the season. A 5 - 11 would put Tomlin on the hot seat. At least one of the coordinators will change.
Regarding the Power that wasn't given to Ben you have a point. But who would have given him more power once he had the accident, two "rapes" and all the dramas he made ? Our season is gone anyway. I was reading that the Falcons will be starting 5 rookies on the defense. It would be great if we could do the same at this point

[isfry Profile]

Start rookies? C'mon, Ohio. You know full well that Dick LeBeau's vaunted defensive scheme is so confusing even he doesn't understand it...

[PGHeaven Profile]

I think the core problem right now with this Steelers franchise is that we now have an owner who is more concerned about who wins political office than who wins football games.

exactamundo - rome is burning

[Matthew1516 Profile]

Ridiculous. Russell Wilson? On what possible grounds? He hasn't even played two seasons in the league. His team is better than the Steelers at every position right now and better coached. Last year they started Marshawn at running back, while we start Isaac Redman. Their lineplay compared to our's is like comparing the varsity to the JV. Frankly, Big Ben was better and more successful as a rookie than Russell was. So Ben is bigger, stronger, has a better arm, is a two-time champion, has more experience, and is playing better right now -- but putting all that aside, I guess they are about equal.

You would be absolutely nuts to think that Wilson would achieve as much here in Pittsburgh, right now or ever. I like Brees, but I don't think he would achieve as much as Big Ben has here -- as he hasn't been able to do it playing in a dome with better offensive talent. No way he could pull off with our line in our stadium week after week. I would never trade Big Ben for Peyton Manning to come to this team. Peyton chokes in the playoffs for the same reasons why he wouldn't have had the same career here -- pressure, weather, physicality are bigger factors in the playoffs that Big Ben can handle, and Peyton cannot.

A strong case can be made for Brady and Rodgers. But none of the others. And none of these guys have been stuck with a lousy non-coach like Tomlin and a bizarre experiment like Haley.

[Ohio Profile]

Ridiculous. Russell Wilson? On what possible grounds? He hasn't even played two seasons in the league. His team is better than the Steelers at every position right now and better coached. Last year they started Marshawn at running back, while we start Isaac Redman. Their lineplay compared to our's is like comparing the varsity to the JV. Frankly, Big Ben was better and more successful as a rookie than Russell was. So Ben is bigger, stronger, has a better arm, is a two-time champion, has more experience, and is playing better right now -- but putting all that aside, I guess they are about equal.

You would be absolutely nuts to think that Wilson would achieve as much here in Pittsburgh, right now or ever. I like Brees, but I don't think he would achieve as much as Big Ben has here -- as he hasn't been able to do it playing in a dome with better offensive talent. No way he could pull off with our line in our stadium week after week. I would never trade Big Ben for Peyton Manning to come to this team. Peyton chokes in the playoffs for the same reasons why he wouldn't have had the same career here -- pressure, weather, physicality are bigger factors in the playoffs that Big Ben can handle, and Peyton cannot.

A strong case can be made for Brady and Rodgers. But none of the others. And none of these guys have been stuck with a lousy non-coach like Tomlin and a bizarre experiment like Haley.

Matthew as I said in the other post we will never agree. Anyway I'll try :

Wilson is the most complete QB in the NFL ( Rodgers slightly below him). He can run any offense. Pistol, I formation, Spread, Shotgun, you name it. He has it all. He is the smartest running QB in the league. Just go watch his games. He runs and NEVER gets hit. This guy brings so much to the table there is no way you cannnot like him.
Ben had a better rookie record due to the rest of the team. If you compare the numbers Wilson had 30 TDs ( passing + rushing) and Ben had 17. That alone destroys your theory. Ben never truly carried the team. Even with Cowher, in the SB season, it was more about the playcalling that took Indy and Denver by surprise that Ben catching fire. If you remember those games changed at the half...

Brees is the best thrower in the league. No doubt. He can make all the throws. He literally throws his guy open. His time throw is unbelievable. Those are things that Ben never had and never will have.

As far as Peyton Manning I apoligize. I made a mistake. I said he guarantees 9 wins a year. I am wrong. He guarantees 10 wins a year. This is his record since 2002 :

2002 10 - 6
2003 12 - 4
2004 12 - 4
2005 14- 2
2006 12- 4
2007 13 - 3
2008 12 - 4
2009 14- 2
2010 10 - 6
2011 Out due to Neck Injury
2012 13 - 3
2013 11 - 3

I didn't do any research but I'm 100% sure that this is the best Regular season record EVER. Manning is already in the Hall of Fame. He is not just a QB. He is also the OC and the leader of his team. I doubt there is somebody with his knowledge and passion for the game. I hate Peyton Manning as much as I hate the Harbaugh brothers, but you have to give credit where it is due. Playoffs is a dirrefent animal. But he has one ring. He should have accomplished more.

Matthew we see things differently. You think that Tomlin, the oline and Haley slow Ben down. I think that we one of 5 guys above , with the same oline and coaches, we would have achieved much better results. You do not take in account

1 - The Oline will always look bad and have a lot of injuries with Ben. That is just is playing style. As I said : He doens't throw guys open and he doesn't time throw. When is the last time you saw him throw a backshoulder pass ? He likes to scramble. And we pay the price for it.

2 - Ben is not accountable. As somebody else said they do not give him power. Why ? The bike accident, the "rapes", and the "injuries" and diva attitudes. We expect Ben to say that he has a " thumb" injury or something like that... Would you trust a guy like this ? Why do you think that accomplished and experienced coaches let Manning go no-huddle 100% of the time ( or as he likes ) and Ben is limited ( even if it would be our best offense...). Ben has never heard anybody. As far as I can tell all the OC and HC have tried to tell him to throw the ball. He takes the hit. In 10 years in the League he has 1 season ( 2008 ) playing all games. Then he has injuries and suspensions.

I hope I made my point clear enough. Look I love the Steelers and I love Ben. I just think it is time to thank him and move on. It is a passing league and we need the Managment to realize it and move accordingly.

[isfry Profile]

We can debate whether Ben is the problem or not until the cows come home, but it boils down to this. We all agree that the OC has to go and, God willing, Tomlin as well. If somebody told me there was a guarantee that we could "replace" Ben with a first year guy who would cost us a fraction of the money and put up the same or better numbers I would agree, albeit reluctantly because I have loyalty, that he should go, too. The argument about Wilson is the equivalent of the following:

In 2001 the Patriots' replaced their starting QB with a previously unknown backup. That backup went on to win three super bowls and set passing records all over the place on the way to a sure-fire, first ballot hall of fame career. Therefore, every team should fire their starting QB and replace him with their currently unknown backup, as the results will invariably be the same, and just think of the money they would save on the salary cap.

My point is this. Lightening doesn't strike twice. Yes, Wilson is a great find, and worth the money, obviously. To say that there will be one, let alone several, similar or equivalent QB's in the upcoming draft (stop me if you've heard this one) flies in the face of a century of scouting and college drafts. I will say it again, a QB in the hand is worth two in the draft. Too many "quality" passers in the college ranks NEVER pan out in the bigs. NEVER. Ben is not perfect but I have yet to hear a guarantee that there is a QB we could draft who would put up close to his numbers.

[Ohio Profile]

We can debate whether Ben is the problem or not until the cows come home, but it boils down to this. We all agree that the OC has to go and, God willing, Tomlin as well. If somebody told me there was a guarantee that we could "replace" Ben with a first year guy who would cost us a fraction of the money and put up the same or better numbers I would agree, albeit reluctantly because I have loyalty, that he should go, too. The argument about Wilson is the equivalent of the following:

In 2001 the Patriots' replaced their starting QB with a previously unknown backup. That backup went on to win three super bowls and set passing records all over the place on the way to a sure-fire, first ballot hall of fame career. Therefore, every team should fire their starting QB and replace him with their currently unknown backup, as the results will invariably be the same, and just think of the money they would save on the salary cap.

My point is this. Lightening doesn't strike twice. Yes, Wilson is a great find, and worth the money, obviously. To say that there will be one, let alone several, similar or equivalent QB's in the upcoming draft (stop me if you've heard this one) flies in the face of a century of scouting and college drafts. I will say it again, a QB in the hand is worth two in the draft. Too many "quality" passers in the college ranks NEVER pan out in the bigs. NEVER. Ben is not perfect but I have yet to hear a guarantee that there is a QB we could draft who would put up close to his numbers.

Isfry you make several good points. I am not suggesting that Ben is the Main problem. We agree that Tomlin, Haley, LeBeau and Colbert are ( everybody is free to sort out the order).

The points I am making are :

- Tank the Season. Few spots make all the difference. No matter the round. Case In point :
3rd 14th Pick San Diego - WR Keenan Allan
3rd 17th Pick Pittsburgh - WR Markus Wheaton

3 Picks... One is rookie of the Year. Ours didn't see the field much...

- Ben is a good QB. But if he asks too much ( from 15 mil + a year ) you can let him go or trade. With a tight cap ( It looks like it will be aprox 125 mil ) you cannot spend above this on any single player.

- More important than the QB is the HC / OC and his playcalling. Just see Cleveland, Philadelphia, Chicago,etc. Average QBs with great results. Related to this :
- A good, cheap Rookie can replace Ben given the right enviromnet. I'll repeat it forever. You have more young QBs starting than ever. Why? Because colleges are passing and the rules in the NFL favor passing.

- Ben is 32 and he has taken a lot of hits... When will he take the final one ? It feels like California. Everybody is expecting the "BIG ONE"

[fred Profile]

When I log in cant comment.
when I 'join the discussion' everything works well.??
LeBeau is a good man, I hope he chooses to move on.
Don't think Colbert recognises talent as well as Dick Haley's boy.
ALL 7 DRAFT CHOICES SHOULD BE DEFENSIVE LINEMEN, not the offensive Dline we have now.
Heinz field needs fixed. Injuries on oline are not just God's work.

[isfry Profile]

We can debate whether Ben is the problem or not until the cows come home, but it boils down to this. We all agree that the OC has to go and, God willing, Tomlin as well. If somebody told me there was a guarantee that we could "replace" Ben with a first year guy who would cost us a fraction of the money and put up the same or better numbers I would agree, albeit reluctantly because I have loyalty, that he should go, too. The argument about Wilson is the equivalent of the following:

In 2001 the Patriots' replaced their starting QB with a previously unknown backup. That backup went on to win three super bowls and set passing records all over the place on the way to a sure-fire, first ballot hall of fame career. Therefore, every team should fire their starting QB and replace him with their currently unknown backup, as the results will invariably be the same, and just think of the money they would save on the salary cap.

My point is this. Lightening doesn't strike twice. Yes, Wilson is a great find, and worth the money, obviously. To say that there will be one, let alone several, similar or equivalent QB's in the upcoming draft (stop me if you've heard this one) flies in the face of a century of scouting and college drafts. I will say it again, a QB in the hand is worth two in the draft. Too many "quality" passers in the college ranks NEVER pan out in the bigs. NEVER. Ben is not perfect but I have yet to hear a guarantee that there is a QB we could draft who would put up close to his numbers.

Isfry you make several good points. I am not suggesting that Ben is the Main problem. We agree that Tomlin, Haley, LeBeau and Colbert are ( everybody is free to sort out the order).

The points I am making are :

- Tank the Season. Few spots make all the difference. No matter the round. Case In point :
3rd 14th Pick San Diego - WR Keenan Allan
3rd 17th Pick Pittsburgh - WR Markus Wheaton

3 Picks... One is rookie of the Year. Ours didn't see the field much...

- Ben is a good QB. But if he asks too much ( from 15 mil + a year ) you can let him go or trade. With a tight cap ( It looks like it will be aprox 125 mil ) you cannot spend above this on any single player.

- More important than the QB is the HC / OC and his playcalling. Just see Cleveland, Philadelphia, Chicago,etc. Average QBs with great results. Related to this :
- A good, cheap Rookie can replace Ben given the right enviromnet. I'll repeat it forever. You have more young QBs starting than ever. Why? Because colleges are passing and the rules in the NFL favor passing.

- Ben is 32 and he has taken a lot of hits... When will he take the final one ? It feels like California. Everybody is expecting the "BIG ONE"

I guess we actually agree for the most part. Ohio. HC, OC, DC and GM are bigger problems. I do not expect Ben to ask for the house in contract negotiations. I have nothing to base that feeling on (although someone on this board recently said their neighbor went to college with Kiesel and keeps in touch and said that he said that Ben is not the kind of guy to go after the cash) but I feel like he will do the right thing, accept the right restructuring to stay. The funny thing is that we do agree on one thing. Whether Ben stays or goes doesn't really make a difference if they don't make some organizational moves cuz what we got aint workin.