View topic - Questionable Leadership

[steelkings Profile]

Ben Roethlisberger has many strengths and weaknesses. We marvel at his talents when he successfully scrambles around, dodging blitzers while buying time for one of his guys to get open. I still remember the 2005 AFC championship game in Denver when on 3rd down he scrambled to his left, and with a guy hanging on one leg, and while falling backwards he hits a streaking Hines Ward for a 17 yard TD pass in the back of the end zone. He threw that pass over two defensive backs in order to get it to Ward. Let us not also forget the almost perfect strike to Holmes to win a Super Bowl. I had the pleasure of following Roethlisberger as he took a Miami of Ohio team that resembled a large high school to one that knocked off two Big 10 teams and won the conference. I knew he was a winner right there. Its fun to watch Andrew Luck and RG3, not to mention Russell Wilson have so much success in their rookie seasons. However I will not forget the rookie season of Big Ben Roethlisberger.
There is that other side of Roethlisberger that we need to acknowledge though. The one who's decision making skills have been questionable at best. On the field he has countless times held on to the ball far too long and taken big hits or taken sacks that have taken points away from the offense. His style of play begs defenses to pin their ears back and get after him. Year after year he takes big hits that knock him out for several games. This really takes its toll on the football team. Football is all about streaks and rhythm. There is the off the field issues that we became all to accustom too. From the head first no helmet crash, to the drunken frat party, to the 2 rape allegations. To the poorly planned, or unplanned pregnancy of his new wife. Before you give me grief over that last statement I'm going dig all the way in by saying that my QB should be able to count to 10 Months. That works if you plan that pregnancy. If you simply screw you wife till she is pregnant then perhaps that's poor family leadership. Or at very least poor family planning. I mean, isnt he a little busy between August and January?
This all boils back to Roethlisberger's rookie season. He had some serious players around him. Some guys who were the spokesmen of the team. A lot of guys who the media primarily focused on. Every time the media focuses on Roethlisberger he melts down. Leadership is what a guy brings in big games. Leadership is how teams get through the tough parts of every season. You know, when you have to play a crappy San Diego team after a big big win the week before. Tom Brady would not have allowed his team to be poorly prepared. The Steelers down the stretch needed Ben Roethlisberger to put the team on his back and carry them through the mean part of the season. He could not even lift his own game. Simply put, he is a player on a football team and not a leader.
The Steelers badly need a vocal leader type player on this team. Three or 4 are more like it. Tomlin cant be that guy. He stands on the sidelines during battle. They need a Hines Ward type guy who knocks guys out on blocks. Or a Bettis who runs over guys and plays with emotion. A Joey Porter who gets in the opponents head during warm ups. Look at the fall off of the Baltimore Ravens when they lost Ray Lewis. People say that Farrior could no longer cover the zones and he had lost a step. Maybe true, but that guy led in the locker room. Where does that come from now. It doesn't. Its missing. And if the Steelers dont find it. 2013 will be more of the same.

[Pommah Profile]

Kings, you bring up a lot of valid points IMHO. The "family planning" is a bit rough because we don't know the personal situation. But the comparison to Brady is fair, Ben wants to be considered with the best, so let's look at it. Brady's 35 and playing as well as I have seen him. He has never been in any kind of trouble, except once, and he handled that well and it died down quickly. He's the first to arrive for practice and the last to leave. He rarely makes a mental mistake and makes sure his offense doesn't either. A player that does screw up on the O gets just the right amount of shit from him. A lot of people on this board don't like the guy but I can't help but admire him.

Plus, he makes it easy on his o-linemen, completes the 10-15 yard out with ease, rarely takes a sack, and his TD/int ratio is 32/8. We are not going to get anywhere near that level of performance from BR7 at age 35; my guess is he'll be out of the league by then, too busted up to play.

[steelkings Profile]

Sorry but the family planning part is huge. Its just another piece of the very chaotic puzzle that is Ben Roethlisberger. It simply was "What is next". Broken toe, bike crash, Drunken frat party, Rape one, Rape Two, Fractured foot, Wedding, Torn rotator cuff, Child birth, Death Rib injury. And my favorite...The getting carted off on a stretcher during week 17 against the Browns only to jump up the next week in a Taa daa type manor. Its utterly ridiculous.

Payton Manning plans out his meals in order to control his carefully measured bowel movements. Whats Ben Do? He makes me wonder whats next. That's what he does.

[Pommah Profile]

Well I'm a little more forgiving having experienced the difficulties of "family planning" firsthand. But I think it could have been handled better instead of being played out in the press how he would skip a game if necessary. The man can afford a jet or a helicopter or whatever it takes to not miss a game, and it's not a problem now for doctors to delay or advance a pregnancy by a few hours. There was no need for the thing to even show up in the press.

[steelkings Profile]

Again, its just chaos. Hes paid millions to not do anything but lead the number 1 football franchise in the NFL between the months of August - January.

Its simple math really.

Big Ben say's : Hey Ashley, Lets keep the goalie in the net for these 5 months. After that, its on"

[Coke Oven Profile]

"A lot of people on this board don't like the guy but I can't help but admire him.(Brady)"

I admire him also for his physical toughness. He gets the snot knocked out of him, gets right up and goes on with the next play. No whimpering, holding his pinkey, whining or melodramatics.
Can't say the same about our Ben.

[steelkings Profile]

Perhaps Im a little bit harsh on the pregnancy thing. Im just sick of the constant drama. It's always something. Year after year. Sorry if I offended.

[Pommah Profile]

No its a valid point the more I think about it. Brady had a kid this year, during the season. I live in New England, almost nothing in the news about it, and no mention ever of him potentially missing a game over it. Born December 5.

Ben sorta set a tone saying his personal life was more important than the team. there was absolutely no need for it to play out in the media and in the clubhouse.

[ballhair Profile]

You have all valid points. These are the reason's I personally am so hard on Ben. Ben is NOT a leader. When putting down his QB play, one thing I point out is his lack of consistency. One thing he is consistent about though is screwing his employer. Ben was the face of the franchise, the 100 million dollar man. It all starts and stops with him. His selfishness and stupidity has hurt this team on many occasions. How many games has he missed due to off field accidents or suspensions? How embarrassing was it when he got charged not once but twice with rape. How many games has he missed due to not throwing the ball away and taking hits? Smart QB's don't play like this. Talking about having his baby, I remember the next day after he got hurt in the KC game. One report was that he broke a rib and the bone came within inches of his heart. Three weeks later he was back playing again. Maybe he wanted that time off to be with his new kid. What a great guy. Next year will be his tenth year. Does anyone actually think he is going to get better? I don't.

[rpbncb Profile]

This team will lack leadership until DumbLin is fired!!! The only reason he was hired in the first place is cause the Rooney's wanted to set the example of THE ROONEY RULE. He was NOT the best qualified for the HC position as is quite evident. It's come back to bite us in the you know where. Kid yourselves all you want, but the proof's in the pudding. There, I said it!!!! Lots of hard decisions to make this off season and if someone doesn't step in to do this the right way, I'm afraid our beloved Steelers will continue in an uncontrollable downward spiral.

[Ohio Profile]

This team will lack leadership until DumbLin is fired!!! The only reason he was hired in the first place is cause the Rooney's wanted to set the example of THE ROONEY RULE. He was NOT the best qualified for the HC position as is quite evident. It's come back to bite us in the you know where. Kid yourselves all you want, but the proof's in the pudding. There, I said it!!!! Lots of hard decisions to make this off season and if someone doesn't step in to do this the right way, I'm afraid our beloved Steelers will continue in an uncontrollable downward spiral.

Problem is Tomlin never built his team. In Minnesota he was one year. Then he came here and had a Cowher team. As much as I didn't like Cowher playcalling the guy was building players and teams. What is going on now ? Ben should have taken the reign. Apperantly he didn't. As I said before against cincy it was his game. In the second half he should have had the ball the entire time. Somebody didn't trust him enough. And when he had the chances to prove people wrong... he failed. Now we should try to understand what is going on with the guy. But anyway we must draft a QB in the second or third round. We don't have any backup anyway. And honestly I don't see ben playing in four years. Let's see how this plays out.

[trenches Profile]

Leadership questions riddle this team. Just look at a few examples that can all be traced back to leadership questions:

• The young draft picks not developing
• The team playing wildly inconsistent from week to week
• The offense under-performing and not finishing games
• The special teams sucking (and, for that matter, after the oddly timed firing of the ST coach in the preseason)
• The wide receiver corps being full of themselves and playing with the consistency of diarrhea
• The running backs performing inconsistently. Hell, Dwyer doesn't even want to be an every down back tapping his helmet every other play to come out. Mendy bailed on his team because he's a WAH WAH WAH cry baby for being benched. Redman hasn't decided if he wants to run hard like he has in the past or put on a tutu and execute a pas de bourrée in the backfield.
• The rookie Ta'amu trying to run over police officers
• Ben and his antics many of which have been identified in this thread... but I find his "BOO HOO HOO BA GOT FIRED" on-going routine the worst. Most of all, calling out Haley's play calling to the media is the kicker. It shows ZERO respect to his coordinator, to his head coach, to the team and to the entire organization. I put ZERO stock in his apology and the Steelers and Tomlin trying to pass it off as a heat of the moment reaction. How about your 100 million dollar "franchise" QB acts like an adult not an adolescent? On top of all that, feel free to LEAD your team to a victory instead of choking in another big spot and costing your team Bruce Jr.

Unfortunately, this isn't a comprehensive list... you can keep going. It all adds up.... the inmates are running the asylum. We'll really find some things out in the off-season and see where the leadership qualities of those running the organization fall. You can always make assumptions about how great the leadership is when things are going well but it's a true test to see how things are managed during hard times. This team has a ton of questions ranging from young player development (or lack thereof) to aging players and how much gas is left in the tank and everything in between. If this off-season is mismanaged then we fans are facing a mediocrity for at least a few seasons to come.

[Coke Oven Profile]

"If this off-season is mismanaged then we fans are facing a mediocrity for at least a few seasons to come."

This fan isn't. I decided long ago not to really trust the Rooneys. I don't see them as the angels that a lot seem to do. If they won't put a high quality product on the field, for whatever mercenary reasons that they have, I've got better things to do with my time than spend it watching their mediocre franchise underperform.

[relictele Profile]

>> Ben Roethlisberger has many strengths and weaknesses.

Mastery of the obvious.

>>There is that other side of Roethlisberger that we need to acknowledge though. The one who's decision making skills have been questionable at best. On the field he has countless times held on to the ball far too long and taken big hits or taken sacks that have taken points away from the offense. His style of play begs defenses to pin their ears back and get after him. Year after year he takes big hits that knock him out for several games. This really takes its toll on the football team.

I don't know where to start with this one. Psychologists call it an Attribution Error and you're making several here. See those big players hunkered down on the line of scrimmage? The ones wearing numbers in the 50s, 60s and 70s? The ones who never handle the ball? Those are offensive linemen and we've had a million of them cycling in and out due to age, injury, contract status, combinations by coaches, etc. etc. If anyone else, including and especially Tom Brady and Peyton Manning, had to play behind this constantly-shifting, porous line they would be out of football, possibly with debilitating injuries. You cannot simultaneously praise his decision making and physical abilities while condemning him for those same qualities. I believe the cliche is 'having your cake and eating it too.' Another would be 'conventional wisdom.' Why is he taking these hits? Why must he scramble and break tackles? Why must he wait for receivers to come open while they improvise routes because the playbook routes are predictable and therefore easily covered? Forget 'one Mississippi, two Mississippi' - BR7 doesn't even get the first 'one' before the walls crumble around him. In short, he is successful in spite of this OL, not because of it. If you're looking to assign blame for the 'toll on the football team' you have many more deserving targets of your criticism, starting with the front office, the coaches and whoever is providing fraudulent medical advice and treatment.

>> Football is all about streaks and rhythm.

Well, that and talent, teamwork, game plans, et al.


>>There is the off the field issues that we became all to accustom too. From the head first no helmet crash, to the drunken frat party, to the 2 rape allegations.

More cherry-picked 'facts.' What you don't realize or fail to admit is that a huge percentage of NFL players get up to much worse. Only 1/8 of an iceberg is visible etc. I am sick to the back teeth of the armchair saints out there clucking their tongues. 70s teams and players - not necessarily the Steelers - would have provided 24/7 scandals. Blowing a few incidents well out of proportion is not a pattern of behavior no matter what Roger 'Flag Football' Goodell and anyone else gullible enough to believe the hype may say.

>> To the poorly planned, or unplanned pregnancy of his new wife. Before you give me grief over that last statement I'm going dig all the way in by saying that my QB should be able to count to 10 Months. That works if you plan that pregnancy. If you simply screw you wife till she is pregnant then perhaps that's poor family leadership. Or at very least poor family planning. I mean, isnt he a little busy between August and January?

You've already qualified this statement but it still bears repeating. Football is not life and vice versa, not even for the players. To expect anyone, especially a newlywed couple, to conduct their bedroom activities with a weather eye on a football schedule is beyond ludicrous. 'Your QB' can do anything he damn well pleases without your knowledge and/or approval. I doubt very much that the children of NFL players and coaches through time all have birthdays in February-July. 'Screw you wife till she is pregnant' - what crude, inaccurate terminology. Exactly how old are you?

>>This all boils back to Roethlisberger's rookie season.

It does? He's one of a handful of players left from that team. Apples and oranges. Different eras, different teams, etc. etc.

>> He had some serious players around him. Some guys who were the spokesmen of the team. A lot of guys who the media primarily focused on.

Rubbish. The QB is the focus of any football team. A strong-armed, consistently successful QB leading a team that hadn't had one in 20+ years was always going to be an immediate star, especially in football-mad Pittsburgh and especially - let's face facts - if he is a big white German kid from Ohio. The 'Big Ben 7' football-shaped stickers were plastered everywhere. There may have been a few '36 The Bus' stickers mixed in but there certainly weren't stickers with any other player's name and number on them.

>> Every time the media focuses on Roethlisberger he melts down.

Except in two Super Bowls and countless playoff games. Just a bit of media attention on the NFL postseason and its championship game, wouldn't you say?

>>Leadership is what a guy brings in big games. Leadership is how teams get through the tough parts of every season.

Are you Ron Jaworski in disguise? The cliche-o-meter just buzzed. You've reached your limit. Let me repeat a few points from above. OL chaos. Two Super Bowls. Multiple playoff appearances and many wins.

>>when you have to play a crappy San Diego team after a big big win the week before. Tom Brady would not have allowed his team to be poorly prepared.

See the men wearing sweatshirts, parkas, hats and headsets walking along the sideline? Those are coaches. New England has them too, including one Bill Belichick. Tom Brady, for all his achievements, still defers to his head coach and others on the staff. When a player misses one or more games due to injury, it's the responsibility of the coaches to a) plan around his absence and b) minimize his chances of re-injuring himself upon his return. Tomlin & co. simply grabbed a lifeline and waited until BR7 got back but made no appreciable changes to protect him, probably because they couldn't due to - once again - the state of the OL.

>>The Steelers down the stretch needed Ben Roethlisberger to put the team on his back and carry them through the mean part of the season. He could not even lift his own game.

And now the cliche-o-meter melted. You owe me a new one. That's four cliches in two sentences, a remarkable 2.000 average. Postgame call-in shows don't ring them up with that frequency. Are you Shawn from Dormont? The team has been 'on his back' for a long time, especially since the organization decided that running the ball was a 20th century notion despite its obvious effectiveness especially against defenses built to stop the pass in the video-game NFL. Isn't a game won in September the same as a game in November as far as records go? The 'mean part' of the season gets a lot meaner when the franchise invests $100 M in a player and tells him to make the best of it behind an array of orthopedic surgeon's nightmares. How - and this is not a rhetorical question - does a player 'lift his own game' when he is a) already playing hurt, b) acquires an injury described as potentially life-threatening, and c) rushes back into the lineup at around 50% of full health? Your refusal to acknowledge timing, circumstances and the dozens of other factors involved only undermines your argument.

>>Simply put, he is a player on a football team and not a leader.

I would respond to this but my cliche-o-meter is in a puddle.

>>The Steelers badly need a vocal leader type player on this team. Three or 4 are more like it.

You have seen too many NFL Films Sound FX episodes. The hooting and hollering makes for interesting footage but it means nothing. Drew Brees has his cutesy little raps. Where are the Saints now? Ray Lewis and every other 'leader' go through the same tedious 'all about us, 60 minutes, tonight's our night' BS and then go out and give up 40+ points. Meanwhile, players like Tom Brady (who you mentioned) and Peyton Manning sound like they're at an insurance seminar - despite this lack of ostentatious 'vocal leadership' they're perennially in the playoffs.

>>Tomlin cant be that guy. He stands on the sidelines during battle.

Why is the head bleeding coach given a pass but not the QB? You've moved the goalposts so often they should have caster wheels on the base. Why is Tomlin entitled be a cigar store Indian when players, pundits, fans and executives agree that the coach is directly accountable? Because of his personality alone? I thought you watched NFL Films - replay your DVR copy of 'The Best Of Mike Tomlin' out and you will find that he's plenty vocal.

>> They need a Hines Ward type guy who knocks guys out on blocks. Or a Bettis who runs over guys and plays with emotion. A Joey Porter who gets in the opponents head during warm ups.

Finally we agree on something. But Ward would be facing season-long suspension for playing his traditional game. Bettis would be on the sideline watching Haley's dink and dunk nonsense. Porter's act was viewed and, sadly, emulated by too many hot dogs coming out of college. Now we have a bunch of strutting roosters all over the field who think a routine tackle qualifies them for the Hall Of Fame. Porter was feared because of his play, much less so for his pregame shenanigans. Players who can't 'back it up' are laughed at by their opponents.

>> Look at the fall off of the Baltimore Ravens when they lost Ray Lewis.

Lewis has been ineffective for several years. Even his media cheerleaders admit it. The Ravens have many other issues. But they still won the division.

>> People say that Farrior could no longer cover the zones and he had lost a step. Maybe true, but that guy led in the locker room. Where does that come from now. It doesn't. Its missing. And if the Steelers dont find it. 2013 will be more of the same.

Given the state of this team in terms of age, injury, contract status, salary cap, young talent, experience, etc. 2013 is a virtual lock to repeat these problems. But your thesis seems to have disappeared. I thought this was all BR7's fault and if your theory is at all valid then BR7 is responsible for 2013 and beyond. Let's take up a collection and send him a calendar -y'know, so his family life doesn't take time away from practicing screaming at his teammates.

[NOVASteel79 Profile]

>>
>> To the poorly planned, or unplanned pregnancy of his new wife. Before you give me grief over that last statement I'm going dig all the way in by saying that my QB should be able to count to 10 Months. That works if you plan that pregnancy. If you simply screw you wife till she is pregnant then perhaps that's poor family leadership. Or at very least poor family planning. I mean, isnt he a little busy between August and January?

You've already qualified this statement but it still bears repeating. Football is not life and vice versa, not even for the players. To expect anyone, especially a newlywed couple, to conduct their bedroom activities with a weather eye on a football schedule is beyond ludicrous. 'Your QB' can do anything he damn well pleases without your knowledge and/or approval. I doubt very much that the children of NFL players and coaches through time all have birthdays in February-July. 'Screw you wife till she is pregnant' - what crude, inaccurate terminology. Exactly how old are you?

Well said, I disagree with most of this too, but especially this part. One of the most ridiculous things I've seen on here yet. Good response, very well said.

[Ohio Profile]

>>

Yo I doubt very much that the children of NFL players and coaches through time all have birthdays in February-July. 'Screw you wife till she is pregnant' - what crude, inaccurate terminology. Exactly how old are you?

Well said, I disagree with most of this too, but especially this part. One of the most ridiculous things I've seen on here yet. Good response, very well said.

Point in question is another one : How many people get paid 100 Million USD ? How many of those want one of the 16 weekends of work off ? That is the point. Brady didn't say a word. Ben ?

I agree on the point that it doesn't have to be vocal. This thing is way overrated. I also agree that the statement on Ray Lewis is wrong. Today and tomorrow ray lewis sucks ( even more than Ed Reed... ). Let's hope that the ratbirds extend both of them

[steelkings Profile]

Oh Goodie! Lets get ready to rumble. Lets get it on......Oh my god, the cliche police are coming to get me!

Before I start, I would like to recommend that you learn how to use the Quote function. Its not that hard and it will make it much easier to separate your drivel from mine. With that said........

I don't know where to start with this one. Psychologists call it an Attribution Error and you're making several here. See those big players hunkered down on the line of scrimmage? The ones wearing numbers in the 50s, 60s and 70s? The ones who never handle the ball? Those are offensive linemen and we've had a million of them cycling in and out due to age, injury, contract status, combinations by coaches, etc. etc. If anyone else, including and especially Tom Brady and Peyton Manning, had to play behind this constantly-shifting, porous line they would be out of football, possibly with debilitating injuries. You cannot simultaneously praise his decision making and physical abilities while condemning him for those same qualities. I believe the cliche is 'having your cake and eating it too.' Another would be 'conventional wisdom.' Why is he taking these hits? Why must he scramble and break tackles? Why must he wait for receivers to come open while they improvise routes because the playbook routes are predictable and therefore easily covered? Forget 'one Mississippi, two Mississippi' - BR7 doesn't even get the first 'one' before the walls crumble around him. In short, he is successful in spite of this OL, not because of it. If you're looking to assign blame for the 'toll on the football team' you have many more deserving targets of your criticism, starting with the front office, the coaches and whoever is providing fraudulent medical advice and treatment.

Massive pile of over written Bull Shit. Twice in the Bengals game, And I call it the Bengals game because we were not in it, BR took sacks that took us out of field goal range. All he had to do was throw it at a RB's feet. But when was the last time you saw BR throw one away? Ever?
How bout 2nd and 12 from the Cincinnati 14 yard line taking an 8 yard sack to set up an impossible 3rd and 20 from the 22 yard line. Or how bout 3rd and 7 from the Cincinnati 29 and taking an 8 yard sack to set up a Butler punt into the end zone. BR's O-line has sucked year after year huh? It Must because he's near the lead in "sacked", every season.
Ehhh? Didn't the Steelers send two O-linemen to the pro bowl this year?

Football is not life and vice versa, not even for the players. To expect anyone, especially a newlywed couple, to conduct their bedroom activities with a weather eye on a football schedule is beyond ludicrous. 'Your QB' can do anything he damn well pleases without your knowledge and/or approval.

Then quit fucking telling me about how it could be a problem. I didn't have a problem with the pregnancy during the season nearly as much as the announcement. Tom Brady had his 2nd child December 5th. Didn't hear much about it though, because he didn't feel the need to tell the media that he told his boss that pays him millions that he was going to take a personal day to hang with Ash and the kid. Seriously, as soon as BR made that "I might not play" announcement it was up for fan debate.

'Screw you wife till she is pregnant' - what crude, inaccurate terminology. Exactly how old are you?

50 years old. And whats so crude about my statement? BR's a crude guy. In Georgia, She said she hit her head on the floor when he let her go from a forced blow job. BR was bleach mop water away from going to prison after that rape. I mean alleged rape. Either way BR long lost the ability to avoid scrutiny or crude allegations regarding his sex life. In fact if he read " Screw your wife till she is pregnant', it would probably give him wood.

>> Every time the media focuses on Roethlisberger he melts down.

Except in two Super Bowls and countless playoff games. Just a bit of media attention on the NFL postseason and its championship game, wouldn't you say?

Let me repeat a few points from above. OL chaos. Two Super Bowls. Multiple playoff appearances and many wins.

He was really good in the AFC Championship in Denver. One of my favorite Roethlisberger moments throwing the TD pass to Ward off his back foot over two defenders. It was fearless. But that was a terrific team. And they bailed his ass out in a poorly QB'd Superbowl. He wasn't very good for 3 quarters against Arizona but had a hero like 4th quarter, and of course again wasn't very good against Green Bay. Average at best. Probably the O-lines fault though. (That last part was sarcasm and not a cliche. I thought you would find that refreshing.)

Tomlin & co. simply grabbed a lifeline and waited until BR7 got back but made no appreciable changes to protect him, probably because they couldn't due to - once again - the state of the OL.

And BR's inability to throw the ball away. Keep in mind that the empty back field set is a BA/BR thing. Not Haley. KC never ever ran an empty backfield as acknowledged and announced by Phil Simms last Sunday. The Steelers rarely play action because BR loves to play sand lot football and scramble around making shit up with as many receivers running around as possible. Its hard to bash an O-Line who has to pass protect blocking 5 guys and a blitzer with 5 lineman because the QB wants 4 receivers and a tight end in the over crowded secondary. But boy oh boy if the coaches call a play or a formation ole BR doesn't like, Ole BR is on the phone to Ed Bouchette quick.
BTW: When the Steelers beat the Ravens in B-more. The mobile Charlie Batch was sacked twice for 6 total yards. Cleveland sacked him once for 6 yards. 12 yards in sacks in 2 games. Weird Huh?

How - and this is not a rhetorical question - does a player 'lift his own game' when he is a) already playing hurt, b) acquires an injury described as potentially life-threatening, and c) rushes back into the lineup at around 50% of full health?

Thats the funny part. You are like Ed McMann. HIGH YOOOO! You just set them right up there. Yes he had a self described potentially life- threatening injury. Wait? Are you referring to when he had the 2008 spinal concussion during week 17 against Cleveland when he was carted off on a back board that he said about killed him ? Or when he crashed his scooter and said he was seconds from death from a vein in his mouth that had ruptured. Or the Broken big toe that about caused Bill Cowher to kill him. Or are you speaking of the out of the blue rotator cuff injury that about caused Mike Tomlin to kill him. No you are talking about the dislocated Rib injury that almost punctured his aorta. He's a medical marvel. Two weeks every time and he's good as new. And I thought A.P was a bad ass. God darn, BR should be comeback player of the decade every year.

One last one, Ed! If BR was a cat, Id be really worried about him.

Random other assorted drivel

I never said BR needs to bitch at guys. He doesn't need to get louder. My assertion is that he needs to shut up and play. The locker room and the fans don't need to hear about his near death experiences. We don't need to hear about his temper tantrums through the media with the coaching staff. I don't need to hear about some factious new injury that he's played with for several years. I mean C'Mon man, At the end of last year he announced that he "considered Retirement". BONG! Just shut the fuck up and play.

Tell Jim Rome I said Hi!

[relictele Profile]

>> Oh Goodie! Lets get ready to rumble. Lets get it on......Oh my god, the cliche police are coming to get me!

It doesn't take the police to point out your reliance on trite phrases. 'This team needs leadership' etc. Again, it's mastery of the obvious and since you decline to defend it we'll have to assume you admit same.

>> Before I start, I would like to recommend that you learn how to use the Quote function.

I'm well familiar with it. I'm an old usenet guy. I choose not to use it. Hard luck I guess. Why aren't you using spellcheck if you're concerned about the Elements of Style?

>> Massive pile of over written Bull Shit.

Well, that's me told off. Your attention to detail and logic is comprehensive.

>> Twice in the Bengals game, And I call it the Bengals game because we were not in it, BR took sacks that took us out of field goal range. All he had to do was throw it at a RB's feet. But when was the last time you saw BR throw one away? Ever? How bout 2nd and 12 from the Cincinnati 14 yard line taking an 8 yard sack to set up an impossible 3rd and 20 from the 22 yard line. Or how bout 3rd and 7 from the Cincinnati 29 and taking an 8 yard sack to set up a Butler punt into the end zone.

Oh God, we're back to Shawn from Dormont nit-picking this play or that call. Your original post was about Ben's leadership qualities over multiple years. Apparently you've forgotten because you want to play coach's clicker with the most recent game.

>>Then quit fucking telling me about how it could be a problem.

I really must ask what you are reading - or inferring. I said no such thing - primarily because I don't believe it. I don't believe it's a problem at all.

>>I didn't have a problem with the pregnancy during the season nearly as much as the announcement.

Ah, it's the ANNOUNCEMENT. Did they have the wrong lighting? The wrong music piped in? No fireworks? You poor thing. What on earth does the announcement have to do with the gestation period of a pregnant female? How would it have affected the arrival date of the child?

>> Tom Brady had his 2nd child December 5th. Didn't hear much about it though, because he didn't feel the need to tell the media that he told his boss that pays him millions that he was going to take a personal day to hang with Ash and the kid. Seriously, as soon as BR made that "I might not play" announcement it was up for fan debate.

Fan debate?!? When isn't there fan debate about this team? For God's sake fans talk for hours about the grass at Heinz Field! What makes you think BR7 or anyone else gives a stuff about fan debate? You seem unable to abandon this Tom Brady red herring. Publicity and media curiosity are a given, especially about a quarterback and especially when he's newly married and having his first child. If he doesn't have press conference or release a statement he would be hounded by the press constantly. You seem unfamiliar with the basics of PR.

>> 50 years old. And whats so crude about my statement?

If you really don't know, then you have failed to learn much in those 50 years. Are you married? Why not stroll into the next room and tell your wife or girlfriend (if you have one) you want to 'screw her.' I'm sure she'll be touched by your romantic, sensitive choice of words. Maybe phone mom and ask her how old she was when dad screwed her until pregnant?

>> BR's a crude guy. In Georgia, She said she hit her head on the floor when he let her go from a forced blow job. BR was bleach mop water away from going to prison after that rape. I mean alleged rape.

The prosecutor took no action. It is beyond question that he had more information about the incidents - if there were incidents - than you. It's very tiresome to listen to all the omniscient people out there who claim to know exactly what happened. It may have been - and probably was - a drunken fumble in a nightclub that was exaggerated by someone with financial motives. But a commissioner attempting to protect his product and a prosecutor who is concerned about the law are two very different things. And the prosecutor declined any action. Case closed, literally and figuratively.

>> Either way BR long lost the ability to avoid scrutiny or crude allegations regarding his sex life. In fact if he read " Screw your wife till she is pregnant', it would probably give him wood.

When you run out of facts, go with hypotheticals and hyperbole. Wood? Are you really 50 years old or are you texting from the back row of seats on the school bus?

>> He was really good in the AFC Championship in Denver. One of my favorite Roethlisberger moments throwing the TD pass to Ward off his back foot over two defenders. It was fearless. But that was a terrific team. And they bailed his ass out in a poorly QB'd Superbowl. He wasn't very good for 3 quarters against Arizona but had a hero like 4th quarter, and of course again wasn't very good against Green Bay. Average at best. Probably the O-lines fault though. (That last part was sarcasm and not a cliche. I thought you would find that refreshing.)

It really is amusing. In attempting to undermine my responses to your original post you are simply undermining your own. But I'm happy to remind you that your post was about leadership qualities. Maybe you really are 50 years old and your short-term memory is going.

>>And BR's inability to throw the ball away.

Because incomplete passes are the best measure of a QB's effectiveness, right? But I'm quite sure BR7 has the ability to throw the ball into the second deck. He simply chooses not to. You see, reinforcement (conditioning) are powerful forces. In the case of a QB who has achieved success by extending plays, it is reasonable on his part to assume that extending plays in current and future games will produce similar results.

>> Keep in mind that the empty back field set is a BA/BR thing. Not Haley. KC never ever ran an empty backfield as acknowledged and announced by Phil Simms last Sunday. The Steelers rarely play action because BR loves to play sand lot football and scramble around making shit up with as many receivers running around as possible. Its hard to bash an O-Line who has to pass protect blocking 5 guys and a blitzer with 5 lineman because the QB wants 4 receivers and a tight end in the over crowded secondary. But boy oh boy if the coaches call a play or a formation ole BR doesn't like, Ole BR is on the phone to Ed Bouchette quick.

5 guys + 1 blitzer = 6 players. That leaves 5 defenders. If one of them is a LB that leaves 4 DBs. Hardly overcrowded. If all of them are DBs that is a nickel package. Busy but not overcrowded.

>> BTW: When the Steelers beat the Ravens in B-more. The mobile Charlie Batch was sacked twice for 6 total yards. Cleveland sacked him once for 6 yards. 12 yards in sacks in 2 games. Weird Huh?

What's weird is your cherry-picking of an almost infinite number of variables. But even if we use your flawed criteria it's clear that steps were taken to give the backup more time/protection.

>>Thats the funny part. You are like Ed McMann. HIGH YOOOO! You just set them right up there.

Do I need to point out - again - that I was responding to your original post? I admit it's full of juicy targets hence the lengthy response.

>>Yes he had a self described potentially life- threatening injury. Wait? Are you referring to when he had the 2008 spinal concussion during week 17 against Cleveland when he was carted off on a back board that he said about killed him ? Or when he crashed his scooter and said he was seconds from death from a vein in his mouth that had ruptured. Or the Broken big toe that about caused Bill Cowher to kill him. Or are you speaking of the out of the blue rotator cuff injury that about caused Mike Tomlin to kill him. No you are talking about the dislocated Rib injury that almost punctured his aorta. He's a medical marvel. Two weeks every time and he's good as new. And I thought A.P was a bad ass. God darn, BR should be comeback player of the decade every year.

Once again, you choose facts that support your position (which is valid) but attempt to ignore those which don't while pounding on the table desperate to distract from the gaping holes in your logic. Hyperbole is just that. You have no inside medical knowledge. Neither do other fans, the press or anyone else. Can he be dramatic about injuries? Perhaps. Has he played in a precarious physical state when many players, regardless of position, would not? Absolutely. Has he done so without complaint or revealing those injuries? Yes again. Is it clear that he's less than 100%, even if we assume there were phantom injuries in the past? Yes a third time.

And what happened to the leadership question? How many times have we heard from teammates who, unprompted, say they know he's injured and therefore even more inspirational? It doesn't take Ed Bouchette or anyone else to deliver that message to the masses.

>> I never said BR needs to bitch at guys. He doesn't need to get louder. My assertion is that he needs to shut up and play.

Dipping into your bag of Catch-22s again. Ben should be a leader but he shouldn't be vocal about it. What do you suggest? Charades? If he skips press conferences and alienates the media who will then turn on him will that satisfy you?

>> At the end of last year he announced that he "considered Retirement". BONG! Just shut the fuck up and play.

And you read his mind and knew differently? With that ability you should be down at the casino winning poker games.

>> Tell Jim Rome I said Hi!

No idea what this means. But then, why deviate from the path of random, contradictory statements you're already on?

[ballhair Profile]

Relictele, will you be Ben's Presenter when he is enshrined in the Pro football hall of fame? He is going to be in the HOF right?

[steelkings Profile]

It doesn't take the police to point out your reliance on trite phrases. 'This team needs leadership' etc. Again, it's mastery of the obvious and since you decline to defend it we'll have to assume you admit same.

Ok, I guess? I dont know what any of that crap means. What do you want me to defend? The trite Phrases or the Leadership thing? Perhaps you will practice the obvious.

>> Twice in the Bengals game, And I call it the Bengals game because we were not in it, BR took sacks that took us out of field goal range. All he had to do was throw it at a RB's feet. But when was the last time you saw BR throw one away? Ever? How bout 2nd and 12 from the Cincinnati 14 yard line taking an 8 yard sack to set up an impossible 3rd and 20 from the 22 yard line. Or how bout 3rd and 7 from the Cincinnati 29 and taking an 8 yard sack to set up a Butler punt into the end zone.

Oh God, we're back to Shawn from Dormont nit-picking this play or that call. Your original post was about Ben's leadership qualities over multiple years. Apparently you've forgotten because you want to play coach's clicker with the most recent game.

I have no Idea who Shawn from Dormont is.

Then quit fucking telling me about how it could be a problem.

I really must ask what you are reading - or inferring. I said no such thing - primarily because I don't believe it. I don't believe it's a problem at all.

You fucking Dumbass. Let me clear it up for you.

football is not life and vice versa, not even for the players. To expect anyone, especially a newlywed couple, to conduct their bedroom activities with a weather eye on a football schedule is beyond ludicrous. 'Your QB' can do anything he damn well pleases without your knowledge and/or approval.

Then perhaps BR7 should quit fucking telling me about how it could be a problem. Get it now?

Fan debate?!? When isn't there fan debate about this team? For God's sake fans talk for hours about the grass at Heinz Field! What makes you think BR7 or anyone else gives a stuff about fan debate? You seem unable to abandon this Tom Brady red herring. Publicity and media curiosity are a given, especially about a quarterback and especially when he's newly married and having his first child. If he doesn't have press conference or release a statement he would be hounded by the press constantly. You seem unfamiliar with the basics of PR.

Huh? What? You aren't even making sense. Its just stupid.

If you really don't know, then you have failed to learn much in those 50 years. Are you married? Why not stroll into the next room and tell your wife or girlfriend (if you have one) you want to 'screw her.' I'm sure she'll be touched by your romantic, sensitive choice of words. Maybe phone mom and ask her how old she was when dad screwed her until pregnant?

First off -ask my wife, who could give a shit about football, what she thinks of BR7 and she will tell you that he is a rapist. She took my kids No#7 jerseys away and replaced them with a Manning 18. Oh and by the way i have walked in and told my wife I want to screw her. After 23 years of marriage, the sex is still great. But based on your writing style you wouldn't know anything about that huh?

The prosecutor took no action. It is beyond question that he had more information about the incidents - if there were incidents - than you. It's very tiresome to listen to all the omniscient people out there who claim to know exactly what happened. It may have been - and probably was - a drunken fumble in a nightclub that was exaggerated by someone with financial motives. But a commissioner attempting to protect his product and a prosecutor who is concerned about the law are two very different things. And the prosecutor declined any action. Case closed, literally and figuratively.

You waited up for Santa to come down your chimney, didn't ya? I'm sure the disappointment is nearly unbearable for you.

It really is amusing. In attempting to undermine my responses to your original post you are simply undermining your own. But I'm happy to remind you that your post was about leadership qualities. Maybe you really are 50 years old and your short-term memory is going.

I remember BR7 sucking in 2 and 3/4 Superbowls. One he lost. One he was carried in, and one he pull from his ass. But ok. im sure you remember it different.

What's weird is your cherry-picking of an almost infinite number of variables. But even if we use your flawed criteria it's clear that steps were taken to give the backup more time/protection.

Dumb as hell! CB beats B-more by not getting sacked and ?????????? Retarded.

Once again, you choose facts that support your position (which is valid) but attempt to ignore those which don't while pounding on the table desperate to distract from the gaping holes in your logic. Hyperbole is just that. You have no inside medical knowledge. Neither do other fans, the press or anyone else. Can he be dramatic about injuries? Perhaps. Has he played in a precarious physical state when many players, regardless of position, would not? Absolutely. Has he done so without complaint or revealing those injuries? Yes again. Is it clear that he's less than 100%, even if we assume there were phantom injuries in the past? Yes a third time.

And what happened to the leadership question? How many times have we heard from teammates who, unprompted, say they know he's injured and therefore even more inspirational? It doesn't take Ed Bouchette or anyone else to deliver that message to the masses.

>> I never said BR needs to bitch at guys. He doesn't need to get louder. My assertion is that he needs to shut up and play.

Dipping into your bag of Catch-22s again. Ben should be a leader but he shouldn't be vocal about it. What do you suggest? Charades? If he skips press conferences and alienates the media who will then turn on him will that satisfy you?

>> At the end of last year he announced that he "considered Retirement". BONG! Just shut the fuck up and play.

And you read his mind and knew differently? With that ability you should be down at the casino winning poker games.

>> Tell Jim Rome I said Hi!

No idea what this means. But then, why deviate from the path of random, contradictory statements you're already on?

All you really did was possibly read my response and then answer them like i said something completely different. you make very little sense. Are you drinking?