View topic - Fire Mike "Can't win a trap game" Tomlin while you're at it

[SoCal Stiller Profile]

I surrender! I have to get my ass back to work before I get fired! I really enjoy our discussions. At least you don't resort to name calling like some of the geniuses on this board, and I do appreciate that!

[deltadweller Profile]

I surrender! I have to get my ass back to work before I get fired! I really enjoy our discussions. At least you don't resort to name calling like some of the geniuses on this board, and I do appreciate that!

If you'er in SoCal you have enough issues. lol

[m1k3 Profile]

Actually, I surrender.

My fuse was already shortening coming into this game.

The first series:
1d Mendy for 5
2d Mendy for 4
3d Ben in the shotgun - sack

I was pretty much disgusted at that point.

You can't get into the EZ even once against one of the worst teams in the league when your season depends on it? 32 passes and 22 runs? In 10 degree winds with a gimpy Hines Ward? 1 trip to the RZ? Seriously? Sorry Bruce, we can't defend you anymore.

[LenSherwood Profile]

I think that the biggest problem with Tomlin is that he was winning with Cowher's coach's systems and players and that has run out. I don't think he is a great judge of talent--say what you will about Cowher, but he knew talent. In the age of free agency he had to rebuild the Steelers many times. The drafts and free agent signings under Tomlin have been weaker than shit. You have maybe Woodley and Mendenahll as impact players and Hartig is only serviceable as the one free agent signing of any importance, but the Steelers have not added depth in Tomlin's draft or free agents. This is very evident on the special teams and the scary part is that the special teams are the guys who have to provide depth. The last three drafts have sucked incredibly also. In sum the franchise is going down with this trend and it will be fast. If you are on a losing streak to the sorry teams that they are--what do you hope for next year as you have veteran players one year older? I wonder if the Rooneys will resign Tomlin--I guess they have to thanks to the Rooney Rule.

[m1k3 Profile]

I think that the biggest problem with Tomlin is that he was winning with Cowher's coach's systems and players and that has run out. I don't think he is a great judge of talent--say what you will about Cowher, but he knew talent. In the age of free agency he had to rebuild the Steelers many times. The drafts and free agent signings under Tomlin have been weaker than shit. You have maybe Woodley and Mendenahll as impact players and Hartig is only serviceable as the one free agent signing of any importance, but the Steelers have not added depth in Tomlin's draft or free agents. This is very evident on the special teams and the scary part is that the special teams are the guys who have to provide depth. The last three drafts have sucked incredibly also. In sum the franchise is going down with this trend and it will be fast. If you are on a losing streak to the sorry teams that they are--what do you hope for next year as you have veteran players one year older? I wonder if the Rooneys will resign Tomlin--I guess they have to thanks to the Rooney Rule.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that. First of all, Cowher didn't take the personnel department with him. We still have Kevin Colbert, so we'll be all right.

07
Rd Pick Player Selected School Pos
1 15 Lawrence Timmons Florida State OLB
2 14 LaMarr Woodley Michigan DE
3 13 Matt Spaeth Minnesota TE

08
Rd Pick Player Selected School Pos
1 23 Rashard Mendenhall Illinois RB
2 22 Limas Sweed Texas WR
3 25 Bruce Davis UCLA DE/LB

09
Rd Pick Player Selected School Pos
1 32 Evander Hood Missouri DE
3 15 Kraig Urbik Wisconsin OG
3 20 Mike Wallace Mississippi WR

Those are Tomlin's round 1 - 3 picks so far. Aside from Sweed and Davis, I wouldn't call any of them 'busts'.

Also, the Steelers have never really been a huge free agent team. They have occasionally found gems through free agency, but it's kind of the exception and not the rule. Who would you have wanted them to sign? Albert Haynesworth?

I think the jury's still out on Tomlin. Personally, I still like him. He wasn't brought in to be an offensive guru. While our D has not made the splash plays they did last year, I think it's more than fair to say that they've played well enough to win games (even last night) and that our O has really let us down. He's gotta do something in the offseason to correct that. I think it starts with a new offensive coordinator,

[LenSherwood Profile]

M13k
Not to get into a pissing contest but none of those players drafted are household names--contrast these with Cowher's guys left on the team: Ward, Polamalu, Harrison, and Big Ben. Mendenhall is okay as is Woodley but they are not franchise players and Limas Peed?? Spaeth? Maybe Colbert has to go too if he made the decisions without Tomlin on the drafts post Cowher. Granted that Tomlin won the Super Bowl-- that is a huge accomplishment that I am not discounting. But again, it was still all Cowher. Tomlin is on his own next year because the results of this season scream rebuilding time...

[m1k3 Profile]

M13k
Not to get into a pissing contest but none of those players drafted are household names--contrast these with Cowher's guys left on the team: Ward, Polamalu, Harrison, and Big Ben. Mendenhall is okay as is Woodley but they are not franchise players and Limas Peed?? Spaeth? Maybe Colbert has to go too if he made the decisions without Tomlin on the drafts post Cowher. Granted that Tomlin won the Super Bowl-- that is a huge accomplishment that I am not discounting. But again, it was still all Cowher. Tomlin is on his own next year because the results of this season scream rebuilding time...

I don't understand the thought processes some of you have. Not household names? What is this a beauty contest or something? Woodley and Timmons are on the up. Mendenhall became a star almost overnight. Spaeth may not be the best TE in the NFL, but he's an adequate backup (if you argue that, you tell me a single team that has 2 probowl TEs on their roster right now). It looks like we missed with Sweed, but he was very highly touted coming out of college. He was the #2 receiver on a lot of teams' draftboards. He's also shown flashes of capability in the NFL Unfortunately it looks like he has the choking gene. Ziggy Hood is looking like he could be a major stud some day. And Wallace is a very serviceable 3rd receiver.

Yes, we still have some good players from the Cowher days (btw, Ben fell to the Steelers because of the other QBs in the draft that year, it was pretty much a gift from God, and Harrison came as a FA, so that was probably more the scouting staff and Kevin Colbert than Cowher). But what do you expect? He's only been gone 3 years.

The key to the Stillers' success has been stability within the organization. It brought 4 Super Bowls in 6 years back in the 70's. It brought another 2 over the last 4 years. It will get us out of this funk too.

[prowlin Profile]

Cowher didn't know talent all the time. The best defensive player on the team for the last 3 seasons rotted away on special teams even though it was obvious how intense and spectacular a player he was. He barely got any third down assignments but always made a huge play when he did. Cowher was completely blind and even cut him a few times.

[LenSherwood Profile]

M1k3
No there isn't some good players from Cowher's days--the Steeler's impact players are ALL Cowher's. Mendenhall has not yet played a complete season--granted he seems good. And you have Woodley. The rest of the guys who won the Super Bowl last year--the playrmakers from Harrison to Big Ben to Holmes, Polamula are all Cowher's players. You have role players drafted in Tomlin's drafts at best. Spaeth? ARe you fkin kidding? Look at the game film and tell me a contribution except being on the field. And depth? How about those special teams-- if those drafts you mention were worth shit you wouldn't be giving up a long return every week. And the Steelers signed selective free agents in Cowher's days-- Jerome Bettis ring a bell dude? Tomlin has not signed one, except Hartwig who is serviceable at best. Now you are rebuilding because Cowher's era is at an end and his players are going to be moving into retirement one by one. Do you really think that Hood kid is going to be able to replace Aaron Smith? I didn't notice him playing at all this year despite Smith's injury. If he had talent, he might be able to play and contribute at least a couple of downs with the Steeler's injuries, no?

[Wooderson Profile]

Tomlin deserves blame, and so does the whole coaching staff. In the least, Arians (aka Corky) and the special teams coach must go. I'm worried about Tomlin because he seems to talk big and act little. I wonder if the players are onto this? I said from the start that Tomlin was Mr. Football Cliche Man.

I'm holding onto hope that since Tomlin is a young head coach, he is going through growing pains, and he will learn (and grow a sack of balls) from this experience. I will become extremely concerned if Tomlin doesn't make big changes the rest of the year and in the offseason. Mostly to his staff, but also bench some underachievers - send them a message. I don't know if the players respect Tomlin? Have you read anywhere where the players stick up for him?

Say what you want about Colbert, but be careful what you wish for. If Cowher gets hired, and takes Colbert away...and if Tomlin ends up being a farce...and the new Steeler front office leadership without Dan Rooney is what it is...we could be in for some lean frickin' years.

[LenSherwood Profile]

Unless there is a miraculous draft and some shrewd free agent signings (yet to occur in the three years of Tomlin), the lean years are here. The talent level has declined because the prime years of Cowher's players are over and they are not restocked. Remember when Noll said of his first teams, he didn't have enough talent to win? It isn't only bad coaching that is losing to the dregs of the NFL. If you want evidence of the lack of young talent, look at those special teams--that is where young players make a mark before they start these days because teams don't want to use starters anymore for fear of getting them injured. Do you see any talent there?

[m1k3 Profile]

M1k3
No there isn't some good players from Cowher's days--the Steeler's impact players are ALL Cowher's. Mendenhall has not yet played a complete season--granted he seems good. And you have Woodley. The rest of the guys who won the Super Bowl last year--the playrmakers from Harrison to Big Ben to Holmes, Polamula are all Cowher's players. You have role players drafted in Tomlin's drafts at best. Spaeth? ARe you fkin kidding? Look at the game film and tell me a contribution except being on the field. And depth? How about those special teams-- if those drafts you mention were worth shit you wouldn't be giving up a long return every week. And the Steelers signed selective free agents in Cowher's days-- Jerome Bettis ring a bell dude? Tomlin has not signed one, except Hartwig who is serviceable at best. Now you are rebuilding because Cowher's era is at an end and his players are going to be moving into retirement one by one. Do you really think that Hood kid is going to be able to replace Aaron Smith? I didn't notice him playing at all this year despite Smith's injury. If he had talent, he might be able to play and contribute at least a couple of downs with the Steeler's injuries, no?

They really gotta start drug testing on this board.

ALL the impact players are Cowher's? You must be high. Woodley and Timmons were both MAJOR contributors last year. And as stated earlier, Harrison's main contributions while Cowher was here were wedgebusting and keeping the bench at a consistent temperature.

Have you watched any of the games this year? Hood has been playing sporadically.

Fucking shit. Even Spaeth caught a pass in the Super Bowl. Maybe you're right. Maybe we should go out and pay a backup tight end $7M/yr as a free agent. Or better yet, we can use this year's first round pick to get one. I agree that our backup backup tight is an area of high importance. Since he sees the field about 5 times per game, they definitely need to address this situation ASAP.

Wallace has already become a pretty solid contributor and I think most would agree that Mendenhall has proven he's our next bell cow back.

Are you fucking seriously going to bring up Jerome Bettis? You obviously don't recall how we came to acquire him. Let me refresh your memory:

The year is 1996. The flavor du jour in the Steelers' backfield is a guy by the name of Bam Morris. Bam is now a household name after being a major contributor in the Steelers' previous seasons in which the Steelers, lost on the AFCC game and Super Bowl, respectively.

Bam is what people would call an entrepreneur. In an attempt to parlay his football success into another area, he attempts a recreation of Cheech and Chong's film 'Up in Smoke'. The problem is that in real life, the cops generally don't like it when they find several pounds of marijuana in the trunk of your car.

With their running back facing decades in prison, the Steelers needed a new running back. Enter the LA/St Louis Rams. Bettis never really caught on in St Louis after being a pretty highly touted draft pick. The new coaching regime in St Louis wants to go in a new direction at the position, because their system could use more of a finesse back than a bruiser like Bettis. They draft an upstanding citizen named Lawrence Phillips.

The Steelers see their opportunity to get a replacement for Morris, and seize upon it with a draft day trade for Bettis.

That's right. Another ridiculous set of fortuitous events leads to us getting a great player. If Bam had never been arrested, we'd probably never have acquired The Bus.

Put the pipe down dude. You can't judge a draft based solely on the season after it.

[LenSherwood Profile]

OK-- MK3 dude-- Let's see what happens next year with those three great drafts. And the next year. Do you think losing to the three shttiest teams in the NFL bodes well for tnext year? Kansas City, Oakland and Cleveland which all beat the Steelers are historically shitty. They are on the worst of all time list. The fukin Redskins just beat the Raiders by 24 points. The Redskins. So all that talent you talk about can't beat a team that gets creamed by the Redskins?

[steelandblood Profile]

Cowher choked at home in the AFCC 4 times. He couldn't win a superbowl until he was there 14 years. Then he moved to Raleigh and licked Carolina Hurricane ballsack even when the Pens were playing there to go the Stanley Cup. In 2006 he went 8-8 with the same team he won it all with. Tomlin won it all in 2 years with no offensive line and an injury-riddled backfield. Had Cowher been dealt that same hand, he not only would have lost ten games, he would have gotten a free pass from everyone.

[m1k3 Profile]

OK-- MK3 dude-- Let's see what happens next year with those three great drafts. And the next year. Do you think losing to the three shttiest teams in the NFL bodes well for tnext year? Kansas City, Oakland and Cleveland which all beat the Steelers are historically shitty. They are on the worst of all time list. The fukin Redskins just beat the Raiders by 24 points. The Redskins. So all that talent you talk about can't beat a team that gets creamed by the Redskins?

Uh, well after the first two drafts, we won a Super Bowl. And again, a few of those players were key contributors.

p.s. We also beat Minnesota and San Diego. Those tidbits probably aren't worth mentioning though since they don't support your case.

Again, I'm not saying any of those drafts are going to go down as the greatest in NFL history. I'm just saying that it's too early to tell either way,

[LenSherwood Profile]

After those first two drafts and free agent signings you had four significant players on the Super Bowl team that weren't the core left from Cowher. Timmons as you might recall was a role player sub for Foote or Farrior. Hartwig and Stapleton played significantly and the best player post- Cowher was Woodley although Mr Still Mill does not agree with that when he grades him week to week. So 4 out of 22 starters are post Cowhers players on last year's Super Bowl winner. Now that core is aging rapidly--many key players such as Ward, Smith, and Farrior have over ten years in the league. And age catches up with a team as the season goes one because post thirty you get injured more easily in a league where the average career is less than four years. So you get five game losing streaks to the shittiest teams in the league especially when you have added no significant depth or talent ready to play. This isn't little league football--if you aren't ready to play within two years you probably are going to get cut with the exception of qb because it is the toughest position to play. San Diego and Minnesota were earlier in the year before the season ground down the veterans or put them out due to injuries. Add to the core not being replaced, the fact that the coaching staff is going stale--Other teams know what Arians and LeBeau are going to do, especially Arians. Oh and the offensive line is in need of rebuilding because it dominates no one and the defensive line is the worst part of the aging problem with Hampton, Smith and Keissel all better than thirty. The Steelers are at rebuilding time which requires better playing talent than they have brought in after Cowher.

[m1k3 Profile]

After those first two drafts and free agent signings you had four significant players on the Super Bowl team that weren't the core left from Cowher.

Again, you're assuming Cowher singlehandedly was responsible for the entire roster, when we know this isn't true.

Timmons as you might recall was a role player sub for Foote or Farrior. Hartwig and Stapleton played significantly and the best player post- Cowher was Woodley although Mr Still Mill does not agree with that when he grades him week to week. So 4 out of 22 starters are post Cowhers players on last year's Super Bowl winner.

So basically you're saying that ~20% of the starters on Cowher's 8-8 team were replaced and the team won the Super Bowl after Tomlin's first two drafts. Yep, that sounds about right.

Now that core is aging rapidly--many key players such as Ward, Smith, and Farrior have over ten years in the league. And age catches up with a team as the season goes one because post thirty you get injured more easily in a league where the average career is less than four years. So you get five game losing streaks to the shittiest teams in the league especially when you have added no significant depth or talent ready to play.

So, then age is our problem? Wow, our largest margin of defeat this year is 7 points. One Score. How are we even in these games if our players are so over the hill? I agree that we're starting to get old, especially on the D line (I'm not expert, but I would imagine that's why they drafted Hood). You can go ahead and talk all the shit you want about him now, but you'll just be blowing smoke. Anyone who knows anything about the NFL knows better than to judge a team's draft after one season.

This isn't little league football--if you aren't ready to play within two years you probably are going to get cut with the exception of qb because it is the toughest position to play. San Diego and Minnesota were earlier in the year before the season ground down the veterans or put them out due to injuries.

Uh, again, many of the post-Cowher picks have contributed, so your argument on this one is pretty bunk. We didn't win the Minnesota and San Diego games because it was early in the year. We won those games because, like last year, players made plays. Our O lit San Diego up in the first half. Granted, they made a push in the 2nd half, but if it wasn't for that bullshit sandlot play on the PR where they held Logan up and stripped him, the score probably would've been a lot more lopsided than it was.

As far as the Minnesota game goes, we were locked in a dead heat with them similar to every single game we lost this year. The difference was that our big time players stepped up and made big time plays like they did last year. Without the two late in the game turnovers they forced Favre into, we probably would have lost.

Add to the core not being replaced, the fact that the coaching staff is going stale--Other teams know what Arians and LeBeau are going to do, especially Arians.

It's astonishing to me that people have a problem with LeBeau. I'm not saying he's perfect. However, the stats don't lie, and statistically he's running the 4th ranked overall defense in the NFL. Our defense has had its issues this year, but they can't all be blamed on LeBeau.

Arians is pretty much already done for, so there's not much point in discussing him.

Oh and the offensive line is in need of rebuilding because it dominates no one

Seriously, dude? Mendy is averaging ~5yds per carry. I'm not saying any of these guys are Alan Faneca or Mike Webster, but they've done an adequate job.

and the defensive line is the worst part of the aging problem with Hampton, Smith and Keissel all better than thirty.

Again, they're working on it. It doesn't happen overnight.

The Steelers are at rebuilding time which requires better playing talent than they have brought in after Cowher.

I would love to have known what you were saying last year after the Steelers won the Super Bowl and they started off 6-2 this year. I bet you were probably talking shit to all of your friends that aren't Steelers fans about how great they're doing.

[SteelBeach Profile]

Fire Tomlin one year after winning the super bowl? I'm terrified by this season, but I gotta argue that the players were more to blame than our HC. Now, then again, he does keep Arians, but I guess it'd be hard to fire after a SB win. After this year however? No problem. Every cloud has a silver lining.

Hines Ward for President