View topic - Ben v Eli

[McLovin Profile]

Sorry to interrupt you edge, but McLovin must cut in on something Scalaid said that is just moronic even for a lawyer. NO WAY Leftwich runs the offense as good as Ben! First of all Baby Byron is as fragile as they come. He's a phone booth with the slowest delivery McLovins seen since my niece trying to pitch a freakin softball. Ben makes this offense go with his ability to throw on the run and scramble when the line let's him down. Save your fingers Scalaid McLovin knows what you're going to say you're a broken record...Ben holds the ball too long.

[Steeledge Profile]

Sorry to interrupt you edge...

that's OK.

Yeah, I was really on one there, but he makes it so damn easy!

Baby Byron is as fragile as they come. He's a phone booth with the slowest delivery McLovins seen since my niece trying to pitch a freakin softball.

Points taken, but I think he is a very serviceable change-of-pace backup.
But if opponent's Ds saw him week-in and week-out and planned for him, I worry that he'd be an embarrassing train-wreck...

[Scalaid6 Profile]

Second, is this Scalaid guy always this horrendous. He obviously never learned to properly argue His arguments and evidence are incredibly weak.

He's even claimed before that he's a lawyer...imagine that

he even thanked you for the compliment of pointing out that he's unintelligent

...not that pointing it out needed to be done...

I think in reality he's a criminal justice night-school wannabe that wastes study time posting useless nonsensical Ben-hating drivel on a fan site just to try and get a rise...
then totally disregards the truth when people call him out for making a complete fool of himself...

You're wrong Sca-can't get-laid, about Ben vs. Eli and so much more
...no matter how many times you obnoxiously ignore the contradicting facts in posts responding to yours and try to proclaim otherwise...

Well if your a betting man sir put your money where you mouth is. Lets see whos telling the truth about being a Lawyer or not. PUT UP OR SHUT SIR.

[Scalaid6 Profile]

If Ben shuts me up I win.

If ANYBODY shuts you up

WE ALL WIN!!

IF ANYBODY SHUTS ME UP THIS SITE IS DEAD. ONE THING ABOUT SCALAID, HE PROMOTES BOARD ACTIVITY. FACT

[Scalaid6 Profile]

A ton? How bout the variables? Like the Patriots or Colts havent been down that much since 04 THATS why Ben is higher. Lets stick to the facts.

Facts? The facts are --- you don't "trust" Ben when the game is on the line, but he has more game winning drives than any other QB since he entered the league. (read: the game was on the line and he delivered)

It isn't a lot in 5 years? Again - most in the NFL. I'm sorry he doesn't meet your personal quota.

What was your argument?

My arguement was BRADY, PEYTON havent been behind much since 04 So the stat is MISLEADING

[octopoon Profile]

A ton? How bout the variables? Like the Patriots or Colts havent been down that much since 04 THATS why Ben is higher. Lets stick to the facts.

Facts? The facts are --- you don't "trust" Ben when the game is on the line, but he has more game winning drives than any other QB since he entered the league. (read: the game was on the line and he delivered)

It isn't a lot in 5 years? Again - most in the NFL. I'm sorry he doesn't meet your personal quota.

What was your argument?

My arguement was BRADY, PEYTON havent been behind much since 04 So the stat is MISLEADING

Isn't this thread about ELI?

[Scalaid6 Profile]

Sorry to interrupt you edge, but McLovin must cut in on something Scalaid said that is just moronic even for a lawyer. NO WAY Leftwich runs the offense as good as Ben! First of all Baby Byron is as fragile as they come. He's a phone booth with the slowest delivery McLovins seen since my niece trying to pitch a freakin softball. Ben makes this offense go with his ability to throw on the run and scramble when the line let's him down. Save your fingers Scalaid McLovin knows what you're going to say you're a broken record...Ben holds the ball too long.

We shall find out sir. Be careful what you say. Your basing you assessment on Byron by when he was on an inferior team. Watch what happens when he plays behind a superior team and he WILL get in, MARK MY WORDS. Lastly, when he gets in WATCH how critical you HYPOCRITES will be with him unlike with Ben. I'm a moron? Why thank you sir. Its amazing how sensitive you guys get when I tell the truth about Ben. Please list ONE lie I have told on Ben

[darthsteel Profile]

A ton? How bout the variables? Like the Patriots or Colts havent been down that much since 04 THATS why Ben is higher. Lets stick to the facts.

Facts? The facts are --- you don't "trust" Ben when the game is on the line, but he has more game winning drives than any other QB since he entered the league. (read: the game was on the line and he delivered)

It isn't a lot in 5 years? Again - most in the NFL. I'm sorry he doesn't meet your personal quota.

What was your argument?

My arguement was BRADY, PEYTON havent been behind much since 04 So the stat is MISLEADING

hmmm thats like saying ben did not have moss last season or else he would have had 50 tds instead of brady or if ben had harrison and wayne he would have had 49 instead of manning. ummmm no we go by the hand the players are dealt, not if this ,if that , or if he had this or that, jeeez scaly you should know that.

hmmm if ben played in an offense that throws 50 times a game and still throws to the endzone when thier up by 30 points with 2 minutes left in the game like brady did last yr , maybe ben would have had 51 tds ! jeeez get real scale!

[Scalaid6 Profile]

BEN VS. ELI SIR

[darthsteel Profile]

BEN VS. ELI SIR

no contest according to the stat!

[McLovin Profile]

Sorry to interrupt you edge, but McLovin must cut in on something Scalaid said that is just moronic even for a lawyer. NO WAY Leftwich runs the offense as good as Ben! First of all Baby Byron is as fragile as they come. He's a phone booth with the slowest delivery McLovins seen since my niece trying to pitch a freakin softball. Ben makes this offense go with his ability to throw on the run and scramble when the line let's him down. Save your fingers Scalaid McLovin knows what you're going to say you're a broken record...Ben holds the ball too long.

We shall find out sir. Be careful what you say. Your basing you assessment on Byron by when he was on an inferior team. Watch what happens when he plays behind a superior team and he WILL get in, MARK MY WORDS. Lastly, when he gets in WATCH how critical you HYPOCRITES will be with him unlike with Ben. I'm a moron? Why thank you sir. Its amazing how sensitive you guys get when I tell the truth about Ben. Please list ONE lie I have told on Ben

McLovin wants to know why no team wanted Leftwich after the FALCONS cut him...Scalaid the Falcons cut him. And Byron's OLs much better than the one Ben currently playing in. Byron wouldn't last two games behind our OL. Be serious!

[Scalaid6 Profile]

Maybe if Ben would have got rid of the ball instead of taking senseless sacks, perhaps he would have had more tds. Brady won without moss sir. He lost WITH him. Wayne and Harrison are products of Peyton mannings greatness, they would be average anywhere else. What wr has Ben made better? We throw more NOW than we did when Kordell played. How does Kordell the BUM, throw 100 passes to Hines and Ben cant? How does Kordell go 13-3 and Ben CANT? Answer that please sir.

[Scalaid6 Profile]

Sorry to interrupt you edge, but McLovin must cut in on something Scalaid said that is just moronic even for a lawyer. NO WAY Leftwich runs the offense as good as Ben! First of all Baby Byron is as fragile as they come. He's a phone booth with the slowest delivery McLovins seen since my niece trying to pitch a freakin softball. Ben makes this offense go with his ability to throw on the run and scramble when the line let's him down. Save your fingers Scalaid McLovin knows what you're going to say you're a broken record...Ben holds the ball too long.

We shall find out sir. Be careful what you say. Your basing you assessment on Byron by when he was on an inferior team. Watch what happens when he plays behind a superior team and he WILL get in, MARK MY WORDS. Lastly, when he gets in WATCH how critical you HYPOCRITES will be with him unlike with Ben. I'm a moron? Why thank you sir. Its amazing how sensitive you guys get when I tell the truth about Ben. Please list ONE lie I have told on Ben

McLovin wants to know why no team wanted Leftwich after the FALCONS cut him...Scalaid the Falcons cut him. And Byron's OLs much better than the one Ben currently playing in. Byron wouldn't last two games behind our OL. Be serious!

The Steelers wanted him are you riding shotgun with Santonio? Your a modern day Clarence Thomas or Christopher Darden

[Scalaid6 Profile]

Mclovin,
Likes to make absolute statements without having absolute knowledge. Byron has been sacked ONCE behind that line sir. I told you before the line is fine. Sacks are a result of Ben holding the ball too long. Just like Ben in the Pro Bowl BEHIND A ALL PRO LINE! There is ZERO blitzing and the NFC recorded TWO sacks and guess who got sacked twice? YOU GUESSED IT..........BEN!! Must have been that SORRY ALL PRO LINE. SHIIIIIIIIIISH

[octopoon Profile]

BEN VS. ELI SIR

The idea that you try to downplay Ben's numbers by creating magical "what if" scenarios with Brady and Peyton is laughable! You said don't trust Ben when the game is on the line - yet the FACTS show that he has had more opportunities to and ... wait for it..


wait for it...

MORE SUCCESS - than any other NFL Quarterback since he started. Face it: you really don't have a legal leg to stand on anymore.

[octopoon Profile]

Maybe if Ben would have got rid of the ball instead of taking senseless sacks, perhaps he would have had more tds. Brady won without moss sir. He lost WITH him. Wayne and Harrison are products of Peyton mannings greatness, they would be average anywhere else. What wr has Ben made better? We throw more NOW than we did when Kordell played. How does Kordell the BUM, throw 100 passes to Hines and Ben cant? How does Kordell go 13-3 and Ben CANT? Answer that please sir.

Now you're just coming off as a nonsensical hater.

Move along, nothing to see here.

[Scalaid6 Profile]

Are you saying that Ben is better than Brady and Peyton?? I'm saying HE IS NOT. Come on Homers rear your biased heads

[Scalaid6 Profile]

Maybe if Ben would have got rid of the ball instead of taking senseless sacks, perhaps he would have had more tds. Brady won without moss sir. He lost WITH him. Wayne and Harrison are products of Peyton mannings greatness, they would be average anywhere else. What wr has Ben made better? We throw more NOW than we did when Kordell played. How does Kordell the BUM, throw 100 passes to Hines and Ben cant? How does Kordell go 13-3 and Ben CANT? Answer that please sir.

Now you're just coming off as a nonsensical hater.

Move along, nothing to see here.

Answer the question sir. You have 6 posts to my 600 YOU MOVE ON!

[Scalaid6 Profile]

I'm waiting for ANYONE to post ANY lie I have said in respect to Ben. I'M STILL WAITING.

[Steel Keeper Profile]

Thanks for the compliments bro and welcome to the site. By the way did you substantiate ANY points? Didnt think so. I did by the way sir.

Been on the site for years. I want to say I have been on stillers.com since before the 2002 season if I recall correctly. Definitely before the split.

I didn't substantiate because there is so much evidence to work through and I didn't feel like doing it last night. And you didn't back your argument with valid points. Your central hypothesis was flawed to begin with because you assumed I insulted the author because he disagreed with me. I am very open to other opinions if they are well thought out and reasonable. Which his and yours are not.

The statement that Eli understands better than Ben can be easily proved by watching them both when they drop back to pass. Eli drops back, scans the field and his head is on a swivel, then the ball is out. Ben drops back, he looks at the rush to see how much time he has, then FOCUSES ON HINES, if hines isnt open he runs to the right (to buy time). If Ben scanned the whole field instead of just eyeing ONE wr, he would have a broader view of the field. How many times have you seen a closeup of Bens eyes and hes telling the safety where he is going to throw by staring down his target? Ben is successful highly inpart to his tools, the guy has the goods (arm). I'm on record as saying that Ben has better physical tools than any NFL Qb, in regards to size, strength and arm strength. Where Ben fails is hes slower upstairs. Bens rookie year Whisenhunt had to dummy down the offense after Maddox got hurt (rightfully so) and by whisenhunts OWN ADMISSION, Ben was slow to progress. Lets be frank. Ben was no more than a game manager.

Your conclusions are all wrong. Yes Ben's biggest flaw is holding on to the ball. But the sacks are matter of blocking more so than Ben holding the ball, did you see the Eagles game? Secondly, while Ben was leading his team to a 15-2 record as a rookie and was a "game manager" Eli was shitting his pants. You cannot argue that Eli has had a superior career to Ben. In every measure (except how they played in their respective Super Bowl WINS) Ben is either superior or at minimum equal to Eli. Every statistic, win metric and individual achievement.

What were the results when he passed more than 20 times?

Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. It is a logical fallacy (there's that word again) that means "Since that event followed this one, that event must have been caused by this one." So since we lost whenever we passed more than 20 times that means whenever Ben passes we lose. What it could show (and probably does) is that when they Steelers played well and got ahead they ran the ball, A LOT. The Steelers have been last in the league in second half runs while ahead the last 3 or 4 years, according to the Pro Football Prospectus. So Ben throws incredibly efficiently for a half then the ball is taken out of his hands. How is that an indictment of Ben? That Whisenhunt and Cowher didn't trust him? We've seen coaches make mistakes before, including those two.

We lost way more than we won. Also, Ben struggles MIGHTYLY vs the Patriots. The one time he beat them was in his second year he hit Plax for 2 tds, Deshae picked brady for 6 BUT Duce,Bettis ran the ball effectively on the pats, that was the key, WE CONTROLLED THE BALL. In fact we won the time of possession 42 minutes to SEVENTEEN!!! We played them again in the AFC Championship and won the time of possession battle once again 31 to 28 but the DIFFERENCE was Bellicheat took away the run and MADE BEN TRY TO BEAT THEM. The result was Ben passing 24 times and throwing 3ints (one for 6-Rodney).

Yep, Ben sucked against the Patriots in a game IN HIS ROOKIE SEASON, while Eli was busy getting booed off the field. Completely irrelevant in argument. Unless you are trying to argue who has had the better career, which is a exercise in futility. Wait, maybe Ben threw the ball a lot that game because he played poorly, something Eli knows a lot about, so they were behind forcing them to pass. Teams pass when behind and run when ahead. Or better stated, teams run when they win not win when they run.

Interceptions are not an indicator of a lack of understanding. All any seeker of truth has to do to substantiate this is look at the careers of Marino, Favre and John Elway. Their careers rich with ints and I dont think ANY of us would venture to say they lack understanding. In Eli's defense, the giants run ALOT of option routes. An option route is a route that the qb AND the wr have to read the defense and make the SAME decision. If they arent on the same page an int can result. The only qbs that are trusted with OPTION ROUTES in the offense are ONLY the ones with the HIGHEST of understanding in reading defenses.

Wow. I have to admit I'm impressed. You just made the argument that because Eli has such a great understanding of football he throws a lot of interceptions. Wow. Just think about all the evidence you ignored. If all of Eli's INTs are a result of SB XXX like mix ups you have a small argument. But if they don't make the same reads that cause too many INTs then shouldn't that plan be scrapped.

Current option route qbs in the NFL are Peyton, Brady, Brees, Eli, Kurt Warner, Carson to name a few. Ben Roethlisberger is NOT on the list. WHY? Due to his lack of UNDERSTANDING. Please save the "Ben doesnt run option routes because Arians is an idiot" remarks. Ken Whisenhunt lets Kurt Warner run option routes but didnt trust Ben to do so, WHY?? Whisenhunt allows Matt Leinart to do so but not Ben again

Hmm, maybe it wasn't Whisenhunt's call. Maybe a certain protruding jawed coach had been burned by WR option routes. But, this is such a minute point.

The best indicator for lack of understanding is SACKS. Look at the careers of Michael Vick and Randall Cunningham. These are the MOST ELUSIVE Qbs in the history of the game yet when they played they were SACKED THE MOST. Why? Bad O-line or INDECISIVENESS?? Randall lead the league one year as he lead Minnesota to a 15-1 record, but LOOK AT THE SACKS that season. Any PURIST will agree that sacks occur due to the qb not processing the information fast enough and holding onto the ball too long (most). The least sacked qbs in the game right now are Drew Brees and Eli Manning (a guess not fact)due to how fast they get the ball out NOT THE LINE. We would all be hard pressed to name two members off of each of those lines.

This is ridiculous. You've found the one thing Eli does better than Ben, get rid of the ball and now you are basing you're entire argument off of it.

Mclovin said Eli and Bens teams have been EQUAL. I say BS! Lets examine the two teams. In Bens tenure hes played with SEVERAL Pro-Bowlers. Casey Hampton, Alan Faneca, Hines Ward, Wille Parker, Jerome Bettis, James Harrison and Troy Palomalu (7). Eli has played with Plaxico Burress, Tiki Barber, Osi Umenyiora, Michael Strahan. Matter of fact I dont think Plax is even a Pro Bowler ( I could be wrong). The Steelers have a better running game, better receiving core, giants have a better D-line, we have better LBs and a better secondary. How is the talent equal, PLEASE EXPLAIN.

You forgot Antonio Pierce and David Tyree. But Pro Bowlers don't mean a superior team. It is a terrible measure of a team and its ridiculous that you would use it.

The Steelers DO NOT have a better running game. That is so ridiculous that you say that. Wow, just wow. The Steelers have an average run game and the Giants have one of the, possibly THE, best run games in the NFL. No need to compare each defensive corp. Steelers have a better defense. The Steelers receiving corps is barely better. Because Miller is superior to Boss although their 3rd and 4th receivers are better. Unfortunately, Miller has been doing a lot of blocking.

Funny you ignore the biggest difference (and possibly the most importance difference0 between the Steelers and Giants o-lines. The Giants have the second best adjusted line yards (a measure of how far until the running back travels without being touched on average, basically how good they are at run blocking) and the Steelers are 24th. And anyone who has watched the Steelers the past two years knows PASS BLOCKING is our biggest flaw.

The problem with the Steelers is pass blocking

We have free agents leave year in and year out and are STILL competitive. Plax was once a steeler as you recall and we won the Super Bowl without him.

And the constant for the Steelers in this equation?

To Bens defense he didnt have the luxury of growing up with a ex NFL quarterback for a dad, nor a stud older brother who taught him the game.

irrelevant





To summarize:
-Ben sucked as a rookie against in the 2005 AFCCG and the Super Bowl and Eli was good in the Super Bowl. Since playoff games are really important we should reserve all judgment until a quarterback participates in a playoff game then label them as a "good" or "bad" player depending on how they play in said playoff game.
-Ben played with Jerome Bettis and Alan Faneca, therefore we should ignore his superior career record and statistics.
-Eli takes fewer sacks than Ben with a far superior offensive line in front of him. Therefore, Ben is stupid and Eli is smart.
-Smart quarterbacks are better than stupid quarterbacks. Therefore, Eli>Ben.