View topic - Vikings D that good?

[thesteelhammer Profile]

ESPN seems to think the Vikes D is that good rather than the Steelers O-line being that bad.
Agree? Disagree?

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/nfcnorth/0-3-140/Vikings-in-a-rush-Saturday-night.html

Vikings in a rush Saturday night

August 24, 2008 1:11 AM

Posted by ESPN.com's Kevin Seifert

MINNEAPOLIS -- The Minnesota Vikings had the NFL's lowest-rated pass defense in 2007. They ranked 31st the year before that, 22nd the year before that, 29th the year before that, 26th the year before that and 29th the year before that.

(For those keeping track, that litany takes us back to 2001 -- the last year the Vikings had so much as a top-20 pass defense. In a 32-team league.)

(And if you're really keeping track, yes, we've already used the word "that" six times in this post. High school English teachers around the country are yelping.)

It takes time to wash away years of ineptitude, but Saturday night it appeared the Vikings at least were on the right track. In two quarters of play, their No. 1 defense shut down the Pittsburgh Steelers from all angles. Most notably, the Vikings limited quarterback Ben Roethlisberger to 65 passing yards, sacking him twice and hurrying him on at least three other occasions with primarily a four-man pass rush.

"We brought a little extra pressure somewhere in there but for the most part it was four-man," defensive coordinator Leslie Frazier said. "One of the things we really wanted to find out this preseason was if we have improved in that area. This was really the game we pointed to as a group. [The Steelers] were a playoff team a year ago and should be again. This was an area that we needed to step up in, and I think we did."

Indeed, the Vikings committed three draft choices and $31 million in guaranteed money to step up their pass defense during the offseason. Pairing defensive end Jared Allen with Pro Bowl tackles Kevin and Pat Williams, as well as emerging left end Ray Edwards, gave the Vikings one of the NFL's best defensive lines -- on paper.

In the Vikings' first two preseason games, however, Allen and his new teammates still seemed to be working out the kinks. Even the Vikings' vaunted run defense -- they have led the NFL in each of the past two seasons -- had sprung some leaks. (Opponents rushed for 5.6 yards per carry in those games.)

But Saturday night, Edwards set the tone by hurrying Roethlisberger into a third-down incompletion on the third play of the game. Edwards and Kevin Williams each sacked Roethlisberger once, and Williams forced rookie running back Rashard Mendenhall to fumble late in the first quarter.

"We're two weeks from [the season]," Williams said. "We're trying to get keyed up and we wanted to show that tonight. We wanted to show why we brought in Jared and how solid we are against the run. We just wanted a good showing over the other two preseason games, and I think we did it."

Even the run defense returned to its dominant self, holding the Steelers' starters to 18 rushing yards on 10 carries.

"We got some runs leaked out on us the first few games," Williams said. "But just to shore up the doubters on our run defense, it's there. And we're going to get after the passer, too."

How active were the Vikings Saturday night? On a second-quarter pass play, all three of the Vikings' primary rushers -- Williams, Allen and Edwards -- defeated their opponent and got into the backfield. Roethlisberger stepped up in the pocket, causing a comical collision as Williams sent Allen careening to the ground.

Roethlisberger escaped, but it's fair to say that not many quarterbacks would have in a similar situation.

"[Williams] is a big man," said Allen, who was able to chuckle about it afterwards. "I think he re-adjusted my spine for me."

Whatever it takes, the Vikings will welcome their defensive readjustment.

[Nel Profile]

There seems to be a persistent myth in the media about the Stillers having a great O-line, at least that is what is implied here.

For example, the network announcers never mentioned Simmons and Colon getting tooled.

I think it was a little of the Vikings good play and the Stillers bad play (not all Vikings excellence).

[El Nino Profile]

simmons makes me sick

[steelerette Profile]

Well, the Vikings' defense was good enough to get through our offensive line, which probably a high school team could do at this point, so I would probably say it was a little of both good play by the Vikings and bad play by the Steelers, as well.

[papaspudly Profile]

Combination of the two, really. The Vikings have a very good defense, the Williams boys are a load up the middle, Allen is a great edge rusher, and EJ Henderson is a beast, my absolute favourite non-Steeler LB.

However, Willie Colon got beat a few times by DE Edwards, who is certainly not a pro-bowler (though it looks like he would be if he lined up against Colon every week!).

And K. Williams is a great 3-technique DT; however, Simmons made him look like a first ballot Hall of Famer. 1.5 sacks in the first half? A lot of other pressures, and of course the forced fumble when he chased down Mendenhall (after Simmons missed the block on him).

So while it is a very good D, the right side of our o-line made them look like Hall of Famers.

[Guinness Profile]

The Steeler Tackles REALLY struggled against the DE's for the Vikings. Jared Allen is an All Pro and he showed it. Marvell Smith could not handle his speed rush. I think a couple of Ben's off-target throws were caused by the internal clock going off in his head that he was going to get crushed by a blind-side hit at any millisecond. On a number of occassions the protection called for Heath Miller or Willie Parker to chip Jared Allen - this helped in all but one occassion to give Marvell the help he needed but on many occassions Marvell was asked to handle Allen with no help and he was beat a couple of times. I don't think many (if any) tackles in this league will handle Jared Allen with no pressures or sacks when the protection calls for no help from the tight end or the back.

Willie Colon struggled a lot with Ray Edwards the right DE for the Vikings. Ray Edwards doesn't have the pedigree of Jared Allen but he sure schooled Willie on a number of occassions with a combination of technique, speed and leverage. While Edwards is an up and coming DE that will probably put up some good sack numbers this year, I think we are in trouble with Willie out there as the right tackle. He doesn't have the size (height, arm length), technique, or saavy/experience to handle the better DE's in the league.

The interior line held there own against a stout pair of tackles. I don't see Hartwig getting tossed around the way Mahan did last year, allowing unabated attacks on Ben right up the middle. Kendall Simmons was tossed on his ass on one occassion on a stunt. This should be correctable if he stays lower while moving laterally to block the stunting lineman.

One of the Vikings sacks was on a 6 man blitz on a 3rd and long. The Offense was not in a max protection and the rush was on Ben immediately. Too many pass rushers, not enough blockers. Bad call by the offensive coordinator.

I would have to say that the Vikings front 4 is probably one of the better groups in the league. They have serious girth and talent at the tackles, an all pro DE and an up and coming DE on the other side.

BTW - Against what was described by the announcers as a good offensive line, the Steelers D got 3 sacks in the 1st half and should of had 4 of Timmons would have maintained some body control when he came in untouched. 2 of the sacks were on 4 man rushes and the third by Woodley was on a 3 man rush. There were a number of other times where the 4 man rush created adequate pressure to convince Frerotte to dump it down quickly (Frerotte was very good at getting the ball out quickly). Timmons, Harrison and Woodley each have substantial pass rushing skills and LeBeau mixes it up so it isn't clear which of them were coming. Aaron Smith can get a very nice push in the middle of the pocket (he got the first sack) although he did get a lot of double-teams by the center and guard. Harrison lined up over the venerable Steve Hutchinson instead of the DE on a couple of occassions and just plain beat him once (the second time he was held with no call) but still created pressure on Frerotte. Woodley just destroyed his blocker (on a 3 man rush) on his sack. Timmons steam rolled the Viking tightend (Shiancoe) on another occassion but Frerotte got the ball out in the nick of time for an inc (Shiancoe got his revenge by beating Timmons on a pass down the seam near the goal line).

Anyway after rewatching the first half of play I saw a Steeler D that collected 3 sacks and would have had possibly 6 if it wasn't for some very quick thinking on the part of Frerotte and an out-of-control Timmons on one occassion. So I will turn the question around: "is the Steelers D that good or is the Vikings O-Line just that terrible?".

[Nashsteeler Profile]

I think lots of teams will have trouble with protection this year against the Vikes, and i'm grateful the Steelers don't play them during the regular season. Two fast D ends and 2 mammoth run stopping Dt's are a recipe for really making a QB's life hard while still facing 7 man coverages much of the time. One of the sacks was on a total jailbreak blitz though. Any number of purple jerseys could have gotten the sack. The other was on a basic 4 man, with Simmons and Colon both getting tooled.

You know Smith is going to have trouble vs. the speed rush, but I still thoiught he did ok running Jared Allen around the pocket. There was still pressure, but at least Ben could step up most of the time. Bigger concern was Ben's lack of timing with guys he has been in synch with all preseason when he did get time to throw.

Simmons and Colon will continue getting tooled by rushers. Colon cause his arms are too short to be an effective tackle in pass pro and Simmons cause he blows.

[thesteelhammer Profile]

As usual, Ben is a leader and take the blame. (but read the crazy stuff Tomlin says )
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/steelers/s_584690.html?source=rss&feed=9

Some other intersting thoughts on the game:
Coach on why Dixon didn't play, Reid, and Ernster

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/steelers/s_584696.html?source=rss&feed=9

[Nel Profile]

(but read the crazy stuff Tomlin says )

He certainly enjoys talking, I'll grant him that.

[JumboHeadYouks Profile]

If the Steelers played the Vikings at Heinz...the game would be a fucking asspasting. That speed rush of theirs would be negated by he slop that is Heinz's turf. The Vikings offense is so one dimensional it is silly to even put them on the same level as the Steelers. Tavaris would be throwing picks and getting the shit knocked out of him every other play. Who the fuck cares what happens in a preseason game.

I agree with the poster who says Simmons makes him ill..what a sack of shit he is.

[steelerette Profile]

As usual, Ben is a leader and take the blame. (but read the crazy stuff Tomlin says )
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/steelers/s_584690.html?source=rss&feed=9

I didn't know Ben had his right ankle wrapped in an ACE bandage after the game. My poor baby! You have to give Ben credit. He takes the blame for stuff he doesn't even do sometimes.

[Y-Town Steel Profile]

He takes the blame for stuff he doesn't even do sometimes.

That's what leaders do

Unfortunately, Ben was right. He threw a handful of fucking aweful passes, missing big plays to Miller and Ward and a sure touchdown to Holmes on the slant. That said it's just preseason and I wouldn't read much into it